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1916 Shortened SMLE Enfield?
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Thank You to Peter Laidler For This Useful Post:
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04-21-2009 04:13 PM
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I have no idea where that could come from but I'm thinking that next time I find a smle with a bubba'ed, cut-down rifle...
I don't know, I just find the look of that rifle interesting...
Lou
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Legacy Member
The front end looks like the prototype Australian "shortened and lightened", which had 18.2" barrels with the band very close to the nose cap. The standard looking SMLE rear sight is different, though.
It may be an example of "product development". Skennerton, in "The Lee Enfield", 2007, states "A similar conversion had already been effected in Britain as the basic design was merely a shortened, full-stocked No.1 rifle..........their British counterparts utilised the original bed backsight, making the sight radius even shorter" (page 347)
I have seen a Lithgow drawing that shows the 18.2" Australian version as "Rifle, .303, Intermediate" and detailing a comparison for length with a standard No.1. This also shows a different rearsight from the trials versions. There exists a separate drawing for the rear sight components as "Sight, Trial, for Special Cut-Down Rifle, 20 1/4" Barrel".
So, it is likely to be a sample of "3D thinking" along the way to the No.5.
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Moderator
(Lee Enfield Forums)
Interesting..
How is the crown on the muzzle cut? Is it a proper job or just cut flat like in a lathe?
The photo of the plug for the inner band screw looks a tad rough. Is that just the photo?
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Advisory Panel
The Lithgow Shortened Lightened rifles were a production run of 100 "Intermediate Length" rifles with 20.4" barrel. Before these, some of the tradesmen at the factory were tasked with hand making rifles to submit for consideration. There were a few different lengths made. Of these, two basic "styles" were selected and a prototype run of about ten each "Shortened Lightened Short Rifles" (18" barrel) and "Shortened Lightened Intermediate Rifles" (20.2" barrel) were done. The intermediate length was selected and a hundred were made with matching bayonets, serialled XP1 to XP100.
One thing I can assure you of, all the trademens examples, prototypes and the 100 trial XP rifles had receiver mounted rear sights of some type. This was a design stipulation right from the start.
Peter, I'd assume if the rifle there was an official conversion or experimentation done in England, there would be at least one in the Pattern Room.
The only thing I could suggest, is the longer it's been in Warminster locked away, the less likely it is a "bubba". After all, he hasn't been making the ultra rare "Tanker Carbine" for that long!
Here's a couple of pics from the back room and displays at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory Museum....
First pic is a very short rifle, one of the original handmade tradesman's rifles.
Second pic I think is one of the finished XP rifles (intermediate)
Third pic is the rack again- this time look at the second last rifle on the first rack- definately one of the "Short" prototypes.
Fourth pic is in the display- A no5, an S&L prototype, and an S&L (intermediate) XP with bayonet and a No6 at the bottom.
Last edited by Son; 07-11-2009 at 11:26 PM.
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For some additional background color and some more tangental research information building upon Son's post .....
With thanks to Advisory Panel members Lance and Wheaty, check the Australia - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)
1944 No.1 Intermediate Shortened & Lightened Rifle - Serial XP53 "Experimental" (click here) .....
There's also an interesting associated thread in our Commercial Auction and Sale "Gossip" (click here) forum titled Reference Thread - Australian Arms Auctions - May 4th, 2008 (click here) .
This thread contains a post regarding one of these rifles (Serial XP45) that sold at the Australian Arms Auctions on May 4th, 2008 for $7,000 AUSD.
Regards,
Badger
Last edited by Badger; 08-14-2010 at 02:07 PM.
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Advisory Panel
I know a UK RFD who has several SMLEs like this. He said they were conversions made for a school cadet force in the South East. They were only intended as drill rifles for junior cadets, and not to be fired. I think it was one of the big schools established for servicemens' kids, where the kids of all ages wore a sort of uniform and did cadet drill. I gather the rifles were all converted in the 1920s or thereabout, and were private school property rather than War Office issue.
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I can just about imagine feeling the recoil from one of the shortests...
Lou
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Advisory Panel
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Advisory Panel
Another one
Paul,
Thanks so much for that information. That is more than is available in the usual texts.
Mine is buried in the back of the safe, so the following is from a CRS-cursed memory. It is one of the 21 1/4" barrel models, all matching, made by S.S.A., re-barrelled in the early 1940's and bearing Canadian government ownership marks. The inletting for the nose-cap appears professionally done, as does the re-crowning of the muzzle. The butt is stamped, "AUS" and something else I can't remember without pulling it out, but I do remember it was a different marking than those pictured in Skennerton's books.
Two or three years before I bought it, at the Phoenix gun show with the friend who owned it at the time, we saw another, with identical butt markings to this one, so it wasn't a "one-off". When I discussed it with Ian he thought it was probably legit, but done by the trade, in Britain, during the war.
Always, in the back of my mind, is the hauntingly nagging thought, is this just perhaps a much earlier version of the infamous, "Greek Jungle Carbine"? No offense, Goo!
Guess I will have to dig it out and take some pix.
Regards,
Terry
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