What type of No 4 sniper do I have?

[CINDERS]

Roger if I may ask a question in relation to the scopes and their fitment;

Was it possible that in the transition through the various models of scopes MK 1, MK 2, Mk 2* & Mk 3 that as production of the T's went along the earlier scopes were left in stores with the rifles receiving the most up to date versions mainly the MK 2* & Mk 3.
Which would leave a surplus of the older scopes sitting in stores does/would the Army or H&H operate that way, was it ever use the earlier types up first!
Thanks for your time Roger.

P.S I did check my AK & S Mk 3 its a '44 mated to a BSA '44 T.

[Roger Payne]

The short answer Ron, is that I don't know. I don't think any of us know for sure what really came to pass, hence the considerable amount of speculation. Surpmil has analysed the figures & this does seem to suggest that scope production, at least earlier on, outstripped rifle conversion. However, from direct observation, most early rifles that were converted were fitted with early production scopes.......& later rifles with later scopes........just as you would logically expect. An odd situation, & not one which I can pretend to fully explain myself. Sorry I'm not more help.

Your observations re your own rifle sound pretty typical.

[Surpmil]

I keep looking at the scope number on top of the wrist. It's obviously legit but do I see another scope number that's been barred out and sanded out below it? Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me? If there was another number there, it looks like five digits as it should be.

Good spot Brian, but I don't think that mark is evidence of such a mod: the surface around is just too fresh and too even (like Bohemian snow! ). That butt and forend are like new: I'm sure you noted the typical "glass-paper" sanding marks in the typical patterns and places of new wood. Something has bumped it in that spot later I'd say, though I am looking at it still! Photo as a negative below; it looks like two lines, with the same surface height between them as the rest of the butt.

I wonder if those marks could be made by the cord that retains the "chock" in the No.15 chest getting looped over under the felt and then pressed down into the wood or reacting with it over years of storage?

One thought occurs to me about the early "T Less Telescope" rifles: could it be the interruption to the supply of brackets from bombing caused the conversion program to be put on hold until the supply resumed, and those rifles to be put into store somewhere to "get them out of the way" and then overlooked when production restarted, only to be "found" late in or after the war?

Is that "43" or "48" next to the "TR" mark?

[Roger Payne]

It would be helpful if the OP could remove the butt so we could know for certain the rifle serial on the tenon. If it's the serial of this rifle then that's at least one part of the mystery solved!

[Surpmil]

Yes, that would be a good idea.

[Peter Laidler]

As told to me, scope production always lagged behind rifle production of course. H&H would call-in rifles for conversion based on the availability of telescope inbound from the manufacturers. Quite how this will affect the question or querie could be a bit of an enigma

[CINDERS]

Sadly the sands of time have covered all the facts and those that could know an answer are long gone from our world.
Thanks for all the replies to my enquiry chaps.

[Surpmil]

Roger if I may ask a question in relation to the scopes and their fitment;

Was it possible that in the transition through the various models of scopes MK 1, MK 2, Mk 2* & Mk 3 that as production of the T's went along the earlier scopes were left in stores with the rifles receiving the most up to date versions mainly the MK 2* & Mk 3.
Which would leave a surplus of the older scopes sitting in stores does/would the Army or H&H operate that way, was it ever use the earlier types up first!
Thanks for your time Roger.

P.S I did check my AK & S Mk 3 its a '44 mated to a BSA '44 T.

If that was the case we would have seen thousands of more or less brand new Mk.I scopes on the surplus market.

AFAIK, H.W. English of Brentwood, Essex bought the vast majority of those scopes from the MoD in the 1950s. One of the two brothers told me in 1987 that they had bought about 5000 Mk.I scopes, many with brackets and No.8 cases, meaning of course that they had been fitted to rifles.

I don't recall ever seeing a new Mk.I scope on the market in the last thirty years or so years of looking. Had thousands been sold new as surplus after WWII some would still be around in that sort of condition.

The number of 5000 also suggests that the Mk.I scopes were not destroyed in large numbers; if they had been that might have explained the lack of new, unissued, examples on the market.

So without going to Peter's books and reviewing the production totals for scopes and rifles again, I'd say almost all were fitted up to rifles, and the MkI and II scopes first. We have Mk.II scopes from Watson dated 1944 after all.