A couple of questions re WWII & Korean War Aust snipers

[gwahlert]

1. Does anyone know if Australia produced, or had access to, Mk.VIII or Mk.VIIIz ammo for WWII or Korean war?
2. I understand that the Mk.VIIIz was designed for use in MMG (Vickers), but Brit snipers did occasionally use it. Would the Rifle No.4 have handled this powerful ammo better than the Aussie SMLE No1 HT?
3. If anyone knows of an authoritive book on Aust produced ammo (such as on the C'th Ammo Factory in Melbourne) I'd be very peased to hear of it.
4. Finally, I inteviewed an Australian sniper in the Korean war (3RAR) some time back. He said that he could shoot an 8 cm group at 300 metres (get 15 rounds into 8 cm), hit a man's head at 600 metres and a man-size target out to 1000 metres, using an SMLE Mk.III HT. How credible is this?

Cheers,

Glenn

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Son]

Glenn, using handloads through my No1 MkIII* HT I once put 5 rounds in 7" at 700yds. The object of the exercise was to compare my handloads to the best surplus, so I followed up with a few Greek HXP MkVII and found the MPOI to be the same, but the group opened out to about 14".

Perhaps have a look into what the rifle club shooters were doing with heavy barrel SMLE post WW2 with aperture sights. I just did a little searching, but couldn't come up with enough information with any one set of results eg, range, target dimensions, scoring, possible score etc. Maybe some others here have something concrete in this area. Really looking for possibles shot at 600+ meters. I think you will find it was fairly common, making the claims made above credible for a practiced sniper. I'll keep looking and get back with anything I find.

[Peter Laidler]

Re Q2 that you ask. A sniper could use any old ammo I suppose but not if he was a) serious, b) wanted to hit anything or c) zero his rifle in because the only ammo calibrated to suit the trajectory of the telescope was standard Mk7. So using anything else was a waste of time - and ammo of course! That's the reason why the Mk8Z ammunition had a different backsight leaf

[Simon]

Gary,

Although not strictly relevant to your question the info below is from a thread I started some time back, Ihope it's of some interest to you?

Sniper Ammo Selection

The information below is reproduced with the kind permission of Harry Furness and is extracted from a letter sent to me in July of 2003 in which he briefly covers how he personally went about securing ammunition.

Harry Furness served as a sniper with the Hallamshire Battalion (Yorks and Lancs) and landed in Normandy on D-day, serving on the front line right through until the capture of Berlin. It is believed, from remaining records, that Harry is the last surviving British Sniper who went ashore on D-Day itself.

Quote:

The combination of a really good Snipers' rifle has to mean that you use only the very best ammunition to ensure high precision results, second best is just not acceptable. As an operational Sniper I was in fact forever scavenging anyones ordnance supplies to get the best quality ammo I could find, so much so it is even mentioned in the campaign history of my wartime Battalion in action across North-West Europe. It's a long story, but briefly whilst still in the UK at Sniping Schools we were promised, as far as feasible, supplies of Match-Grade rifle ammunition for our Sniper Section. But the sheer logistics of a vast Army in the field once battle started meant that specilist supplies grew scarce, and everyone in the line was issued the same sort of general purpose ammo made by mass production methods. To be fair it was quite reliable on the whole, but it was certainly not good enough for the precision long range Sniper who demands competition grade ammunition. My only source then had to be looking through cases of incoming ammo and picking out a supply of those from the best factories. I scrounged good ammo wherever I could find it, when others slept from exhaustion I still kept going and searched out the best for myself and our Section Snipers.

Only a few years ago I was told about a re-union held by the support Vickers Machine Gunners to my Battalion, (the 2nd Bn Kensingtons). At their get-together in London the veterans retold old war stories, etc. Then it was remembered that a Yorks and Lancs Regt Sergeant-Sniper used to come to their slit trenches offering his cigarette supplies for ammo he could pick out from their supply of ordnance. I was after their special issue of long range .303" MkVIIIz. The MG NCOs' only received limited supplies reserved for special shoots, so mostly weren't overkeen to let me have the complete case. I recall being told by their Sergeant Major that I would be making the best use of it anyway, so by handing over a weeks supply of issue and purchased cigarettes I came away with my prize rounds, in reality it meant little to me to hand over all my cigarette ration as I kept them only for bartering anyway, as I am a lifelong non-smoker. I might mention that the use of very specialised .303" rounds such as Armour-Piercing, Incendiary, and the MG MkVIIIz are thought to be very corrosive to a barrel, but my thoughts on it were that I used it in moderation and I fired it only occasionally then my barrel would last, and it did of course.

End quote.

I hope the above is of interest?

Cheers,

Simon.

[Peter Laidler]

I bet nobody thought to ask how they zeroed their rifles to the ammo that wasn't even remotely calibrated to the trajectory marked on the telescope scales

[Bindi2]

I bet nobody thought to ask how they zeroed their rifles to the ammo that wasn't even remotely calibrated to the trajectory marked on the telescope scales

I dont know how Harry zeroed his rifle . My method would be zero at 100yds or 200yds then count the clicks up for each 25yd or 50yd target going out to my limits for my preferred batch or type. Once done any new batch would only need checking at several ranges for consistence. Not having the luxuary of a supply of Mk7 or a large outfit of smart guys to do it for me only hand reloads and time i make loads to suit my rifle then work out the ranges by click count.

[muffett.2008]

Glenn, back then life was more interesting.
As Peter points out, the No.32 and Pattern 18 scopes were zeroed and graduated for the Mk.VII, but the chase was always on for match ammunition (always promised but rarely supplied, or MkVIIz. Canadian pattern or the later W.R.A packaged as red label and easily found by scrounging snipers and marksmen. (both ball powder and less damaging, their trajectories and specs closely related to the standard MkVII.)

Special Match ammo marked K.and date e.g K37(Kynoch 1937) and either S.L or 303 SL.(streamlined) or just KYNOCK .303 7.Z or if Canadian was available D A 39 VII.
These cases were marked with either a black base or coloured bands on the case.
Information relating to this type of ammunition can be found in the B.A. TEMPLE series in IDENTIFICATION MANUAL ON THE .303 BRITISH SERVICE CARTRIDGE. volumes 1 to 5.
Vol.1 covers all the ball ammo and Match cartridges, the last page on selecting ammunition for accuracy is very brief but pertinant.

Good hunting, keep me in mind when the book is finished.

[Peter Laidler]

The last time we had No4T's that I recall, back into the mid 70's, we had a 'same-batch' of .303" green spot ball in the corner of the ammo bunker. Mind you, it wasn't in short supply then. But with regard to Bindi and the shooting with the Mk7Z or 8Z, the trajectory calibrations really did start to differ (just reverse a Mk2 Vickers backsight scale to see.............. I know that you'll all have one handy!) early on and the only way you could do it would be to zero in at, say 300 - which most did anyway and ignore the range scale below or above that, then learn a new clicker scale, this time starting from the stop to ), then to 3, then a new clicker scale from 3 to ................... God, can you see it already...... Sat in some dark old hide, cold and wet after a cold night on the advance into Antwerp, hungry, figuring out where you are going to shoot at the Officer doing his rounds of the sentries. You've got to remember the old 2-2-2-3-4-5 clicker scale in case you need to go back to Mk7 and.......

Anyway, snipers don't need a hard life, they want simple things. That's why that've got range scales and clicks! I just think, and I know that I could be wrong here, but time plays tricks on the mind. Just like those who used to throw a Sten in a room to kill the occupants instead of a grenade and of how the Bren gun was soooooooooo accurate that...., you know what I mean! And recently, at a Mini Cooper festival, how everyone had a British Racing Green Mini Cooper from the factory when there wasn't such a thing opr how cheap they were that when you wrote one off, you just went out and bought another.

Sorry to be contrary, but having been a sniper Division Armourer and heard it all before......... I've got my steel helmet on and await the incoming fire. But I have another real low baller to throw when it does..........................

[Simon]

Anyway, snipers don't need a hard life, they want simple things. That's why that've got range scales and clicks! I just think, and I know that I could be wrong here, but time plays tricks on the mind. Just like those who used to throw a Sten in a room to kill the occupants instead of a grenade and of how the Bren gun was soooooooooo accurate that...., you know what I mean! And recently, at a Mini Cooper festival, how everyone had a British Racing Green Mini Cooper from the factory when there wasn't such a thing opr how cheap they were that when you wrote one off, you just went out and bought another.

Sorry to be contrary, but having been a sniper Division Armourer and heard it all before......... I've got my steel helmet on and await the incoming fire. But I have another real low baller to throw when it does..........................

Peter,

I don't mean to be disrepctful but I've known Harry for more than a good few years and have spent many an hour listening intently as he's been good enough to recount some of his wartime experiences to me. I can tell you one thing for certain about Harry (Nigel G can back me up on this) and that's that time certainly hasn't "played any tricks on his mind" and having spoken to him at length only a couple of weeks back I can tell you he's still as sharp as a tack. I don't doubt, and am in no way questioning, your knowledge of the No4(T) on the Armourers bench and the KD range. That said if the most succesful British Sniper of WWII, a man who carried the 4(T) and used it in frontline combat day after day for twelve months, tells me he sought out MKVIII, AP and tracer for occasional special use then I'm afraid I'm going to believe him.

Cheers,

Simon.

[Nigel]

I was going to keep out of this discussion - because I have the deepest respect for Peter's knowledge and I agree with everything he has said in this thread. I have known Harry Furness for 20 years and, like Simon, have met and corresponded with him on numerous occasions. I feel I have to support Simon because Harry has also told me and written to me about his liking of MkVIIIz ammo. Harry used the flattening the trajectory technique (as taught in the manuals of the time). The method is to zero your rifle at 300 yards and this guarantees a hit somewhere on the body at any range up to 400 yards. Once zeroed Harry wouldn't touch his elevation drum, let alone worry about clicks. Experience told him when to aim up or down a bit. He pulled off a snap shot at a German senior officer at 600 yards using this technique - he hit his target! After the war Harry remained in Germany waiting to be demobbed, along with hundreds of thousands of other Allied troops. In 1946 a skill at arms competition was held amongst all the Allied forces (this was mainly to keep the troops motivated). Harry entered the 3 day sniper competition.The competition was designed to simulate real battle conditions - sleep deprivation was part of the deal with the snipers being forced to build hides during the night and then to observe/shoot throughout the next day on an unknown distance shoot that lastest 12 hours. Harry used his proven technique and Parker Hale monopod rifle rest. Lots of money was riding on his performance as his battalion knew how good he was. Suffice to say Harry won and received a gold medal - I've seen the medal and if anyone can claim to be the best Allied sniper of WW2 - then Harry has the medal and scars to prove it. Both Peter and Simon are right in what they say - but Harry was exceptional.