UK No4T withdrawal date?

[mrclark303]

Afternoon all,

After seeing the pics of Geoff's great XL42, I started pondering the out of service date for the No4T.

Considering the L42 came into service in dribs and drabs in the early 1970's, when was the final No4T withdrawn from UK active service?

I would imagine it must have served on in a few TA units until the mid 1970's at least ??

Information

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[bigduke6]

John, I would guess like you say mid 70's but reading some old posts on the L42, Peter mentioned something regarding the last serving Enfield then they had to change the wording etc, due to drill rifles and No8's, even then he mentions a SMLE No1 Mk111 still being on the "Books" ......

[Roger Payne]

I'm waiting for Peter to chime in on this one, as he is probably in the best position to know. However, I remember chatting to the late Pete Bloom in my garage one evening many years ago (whilst effecting some urgent Lee Enfield first aid for him!), & he stated that during his first tour in Northern Ireland as a RM sniper, in 1971 I think he said, he was equipped with a 4T, though he had a L42A1 for subsequent tours. The Marines would hardly have been at the bottom of the pecking order for new kit, so I would have thought that the mid-seventies would sound about right, once one takes into account TA units & so on.

[Brian Dick]

They were all pretty much withdrawn from UK service in the mid 1970's.nPeter may have an exact date when he returns.

[Peter Laidler]

The withdrawal of No4T's was all done on a rotating basis due to the severe shortage of them in use and Ordnance. Even those in 'service' as 'loan stores - to aid the civil powers' to UK Police forces were withdrawn at about the same time*. So as those in Ordnance were converted a couple of hundred at a time, issued out and the unit would then return the old No4T's - and so on. So the mid to late 70's would be about right.

* this gave rise to a demand for the new Enforcer as Police Forces wanted the new L42. But there weren't sufficient stocks. And the condition of the 4T's they returned was best described as '.....dire' and incomplete

[mike1967]

And the condition of the 4T's they returned was best described as '.....dire' and incomplete

Which begs the question, Its amazing there are so many No4Ts sitting in collections that are in excellent order.

[Peter Laidler]

Those in collections have probably been there, polished and cared for, for absolutely ages. Those in Police Armouries were stored there untouched and uncared for in the 50's through into the 70's when there was no real armed crime to speak of that would warrant their use. Those with the Army were in semi-regular use so were worn. Many of which were culled at Enfield.

Incidentally, the Police at the time also had hundreds of Inglis Brownings and .38" Enfield anf Webley revolvers. I collected a couple of hundred rifles and pistols from some Southern police forces and while they'd been 'cleaned' for the purposes of handing in, the Station handyman at Nxxxxx told me that he'd struggled to find the key to the locker they were in - which itself was stored in a garage (albeit a lock-up) but next to the power washer and sprayed them over with WD40. As for anything like resembling a CES or chest or........., well, anything, forget it! They were pretty-well unaccounted for, believe me! All taken to an Ordnance Facility at Longmoor initially.

There were so few suitable that the traveling examiner told me several relaxations in the FTR standard were introduced for the L42 including the height of sear stop as I recall plus a few other minor bits. Happy days. But I did manage to get myself a spare telescope/bracket/tin out of it.........

[mrclark303]

Those in collections have probably been there, polished and cared for, for absolutely ages

I suppose when you take into account wartime production of 24,000 odd rifles, factor in wartime loss WW2/ Korea plus all the other post empire Brush fire wars including WFU and gifted rifles etc, taking ordnance down to what shall we say, half the production number?

Then factor in the reduced requirements of the post National Service professional Armed Forces and you still have (theoretically) more No4T's than you require, so I would guess that many of the good examples in collections today probably got sold off to trade in the 1958 - 1962 time frame along with hundreds of thousands of other Enfields.

[Lee Enfield]

I suppose when you take into account wartime production of 24,000 odd rifles, factor in wartime loss WW2/ Korea plus all the other post empire Brush fire wars including WFU and gifted rifles etc, taking ordnance down to what shall we say, half the production number?

Then factor in the reduced requirements of the post National Service professional Armed Forces and you still have (theoretically) more No4T's than you require, so I would guess that many of the good examples in collections today probably got sold off to trade in the 1958 - 1962 time frame along with hundreds of thousands of other Enfields.

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

[Bindi2]

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

Proof fired before wrapping for storage. Broken wrap to check serial and apply import stamp.

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

Proofed fired before wrapping for storage. Wrap broken to check serial an d to apply import stamp