T3 with Non infrared scope? Fact or fiction?

[jdmcomp]

The question many have wanted to ask but were afraid to for fear of being called a newby.

So, there are claims that a small number of Carbines were built and fitted with sniper scopes as used on the 1903a4 and Garand (M73 and M82). The number quoted most often is 811. The story is that they were issued to Marines in the S Pacific theater.

The question is, is this fact or fiction? Which ever side you fall on, please try to provide support for you opinion. And be kind, I did search the forum and found little.

Also, could a standard M3 scope mount accept the Redfield rings of these scopes, and thus field conversions (which, from my service experience, is quite likely).

Information

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[firstflabn]

"So, there are claims...

Which ever side you fall on, please try to provide support for you opinion..."

Provide some for your assertion first. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

[jdmcomp]

Yep, there is one in ever crowd. I am not making the claim, I merely posit the claim.

[firstflabn]

Yep, there is one in ever crowd. I am not making the claim, I merely posit the claim.

Please try to stay on the subject. Your snide remark directed at me personally is inappropriate.

Why didn't you ask the "source" of the claim for the evidence you now want? Provide info to get info.

[Gil Boyd]

So I can calm things down, the M3 did in fact have such equipment fitted during the Korean War used by Australian troops and during WW2. The forerunner for the Starlight scope presumably!
Fight at Night: U.S Army Night Vision 1945-1980

[jdmcomp]

My apology, it was said in jest and nothing more. And i did explain that I do not have skin in the game, just looking for facts/sources. After all if I had a source then there is nothing to discuss.

[firstflabn]

My apology, it was said in jest and nothing more. And i did explain that I do not have skin in the game, just looking for facts/sources. After all if I had a source then there is nothing to discuss.

We're good. I appreciate it. If we were face to face, the identical statements accompanied by a wry smile or a wink wouldn't even be noticed. This kite string and paper cup communication method has its limitations.

I'm still in the dark on what you base your theory on, so I have to cover all the weak points.

First, it's pretty safe to say the batch of 811 T3s did not go to the South Pacific (with or without conventional optics) - unless it was for storage. The SPA had been officially redesignated a supply zone 5-10 months before these 811 were produced. Not much call for a new toy in a quiet area. If your sources suggest they did, I would have qualms about relying on any other claims from the same source.

Second, why do I think the 811 T3s didn't go to the SPA during WWII under any scenario, regardless of how unlikely? Because they went somewhere else. I have a 31 Aug 45 Ordnance report showing that during the first 6 months of 1945, 809 T3s were sent to the Corps of Engineers (presumably for Sniperscope electronics installation) and the other 2 went somewhere in the Zone of the Interior (likely either for testing, or maybe photographing for FMs, PR, etc.)

I don't think anyone would posit that the Engineers were authorized to install conventional scopes on any Ordnance equipment. Had the 809 T3s somehow gone to the Engineers, then a change of plan occurred and they were sent back to Ordnance for conventional scope installation, that transfer would show up on this report. No such indication occurs.

My guess is these 809 sat around stateside with the Engineers waiting for the M2 Sniperscope electronics design to be approved and the equipment manufactured - and then the war ended. I would refer you to CCNL 368 for details on the ones that got used on Okinawa. No evidence has been presented on use in the Philippines other than the 50 sent to the SW Pacific Area for training sometime around late Sept 44. These are clearly not from the 811.

What happened after V-E Day is outside my research interest, so I'll leave that to others.

[painter777]

.... a M1 carbine with a scope and mounts that wouldn't interfere with ejecting spent brass.

Inland M1E7 Light Weight Sniper Carbine
Weaver model 330B
Inland plant, June 1943
Inland # XA76 started the 6,000 rd endurance test at Aberdeen August 2, 1943


P.S. T3 with NON Infrared scope............ FICTION

CH-P777

[JimF4M1s (Deceased)]

Come on guys, let's play nice.

[Bruce McAskill]

As Charlie said the M1E7 was an experimental scoped carbine using a Weaver 330 commercial scope. In a nut shell the mount was very stable but the scope took a beating. By a little less then 3000 rounds the scope was destroyed internally from the forces of the brass hitting the scope. The mount went on to be used in the T3 night vision system. But the scoped M1E7 carbine was never adopted in any form.