Cartridges II

[CINDERS]

I've started another thread on them as the other one as some of the pics by myself and RCS are not opening up for some reason.

Anyway I'd like some assistance with these two that I found in my wildcats lot (Not supposed to be there).
The H/S is MF = Munitions Footscray
73 - 1973
7.62
F3

The F3 and the black primer has me stumped what do these both mean is the black primer a proof loading!
As always I appreciate the help by the members here.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[browningautorifle]

the black primer has me stumped

Well, here's what I found but it bothers me. I never imagined seeing one...read for yourself, the black primers supposedly mean loaded with sugar and used for bandoleer testing. Here's some reading for you.

Nato Ball Round with black primer - #5 by captainT - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum

[RCS]

Do not know if this is common or not, but found a early 1960 New Zealand head stamp - how this is correct ?



Also in response to the black primers: I have some US F A 49 AP 30 cal with a black primer.

In 1949 US Ordnance started testing non corrosive primers and used a black color primer

[browningautorifle]

In 1949 US Ordnance started testing non corrosive primers and used a black color primer

The whole idea of that statement of it being sugar loaded...with what appears to be a standard primer(black)...is so strange. Someone must have more.

[CINDERS]

The second link does not work sadly Jim, RCS the CAC round what gives the game away being of NZ production the "N"?

These black primers are going to be one of those things that we will be chasing our tails for a definitive answer some one here must know something.

Anyway here is another wildcat I have pretty much over bore the .17 Fred Flintstone the parent case is the 22/250 Rem.

303 MkVII for scale.

[RCS]

the 17 Flintstone Super Eyebunger or Fred Flintstone can fire a 25 gr bullet at 4500 fps which can also punch through a 1/4 metal plate. the manufactures (Ruger was one) and custom barrel makers always had problems with 17 cal (and under) barrels. I have a 17/222 wildcat cartridge which has stood the test of time for the past 40 years. I understand the 17/223 wildcat is still popular.

My photo shows a 285 OKH from the well know group of O'Neil, Keith and Hopkins and has been around for awhile. Early developments use a flash tube inside the cartridge case extending from the primer, plus a duplex powder charge. In the duplex load a fine powder was used in the rear half and a coarse powder at the front, some loadings used three different types of powder with the flash tube. With the normal loading it appears the 285 OKH is not really any better than the standard factory 280 Remington cartridge

[CINDERS]

Yes I read about the primer tube in Elmer Keith's Hell I Was There (Great book), the .17 calibers when they first come out everybody lauded them as they were ruthless on foxes but kept the energy inside the fox so no big entry/exit wounds. They are very hard to keep clean as they foul pretty easily so the accuracy falls away along with any puff of wind can move that tiny projectile off the target.

I've burnt foxes with my 22/250 Parker Hale Grand Safari with handloads 55gn Blitz Kings at @3600fps just blows big holes in things and on rabbits it just turns them into red spray but good fun but never miss a fox 'cause if you do they are very wary of the spotlight or whistle crafty suckers.
I remember I was sitting over a dam ghillie suited in forest pattern using the whistle before moving on and I sorta got this feeling that all was not quite right as the rabbits were not there nor the ducks or divers on the dam hhmmm I thought foxy loxy is about I had a really stiff breeze coming from my Rt. (Important*)
So I had the rifle on the long harris bi-pod bolt half open holding a round as I was sitting down so here we were mulling over whats up and I happened to look over my Rt shoulder well there you go at 15 feet was Mr foxy loxy head down eyeing me off pondering what this tree stump looking thing was about.
He was a male in resplendent condition gotta nail you mate, so Rt hand crept towards my rifle sitting on the bi-pod fox notices movement and moves out to 35 feet in front of me still inquisitive whilst my hand is on the rifle good so I started to lift.

Well things never really align in predicaments like this the wind changed 90 degrees and from behind me now he got a good whiff did an end swap whilst opening the throttle in all fours by this time I had the rifle up but as I was set for a long shot with the scope on 30 power I could not find him.
By the time I wound the power ring back and got him in the scope he was already zig zagging 180-200 meters away plus I was in a horrid position the long legged bi-pod and heavy 28" barrel it was a difficult off hand shot damn nose heavy rifle!
I let him live but came across the pair some weeks later killing the vixen going for a 2 in 1 shot but hit her lower jaw so it just blew her up and he off again followed by a hope shot at about 400m.
Pic of the Vixen that's another funny story she is.

[CINDERS]

The 7-30 Waters cartridge was originally a wildcat cartridge developed by author Ken Waters in 1976 to give better performance to lever-action rifle shooters than the parent .30-30 Winchester cartridge, by providing a higher velocity and flatter trajectory with a smaller, lighter bullet. By 1984, Winchester introduced a Model 94 rifle chambered for the 7-30 Waters, establishing it as a commercial cartridge. In 1986, Thompson/Center began chambering 10-inch, 14-inch, and 20-inch Contender barrels for the cartridge.

Development
A review of the 7-08 Rem. (a .308 Win. case necked down to 7 mm), explains the design of the cartridge with the following:
Anything a 7 mm can do, a .30 caliber of comparable sectional density and ballistic coefficient can also do. The catch is, in order to send a .30-caliber slug over a trajectory as flat as that 7 mm bullet, about 20 percent more recoil is going to be generated. A bullet in 7 mm produces clearly superior downrange performance in terms of delivered energy and trajectory at any given recoil level compared to a bullet in .30 caliber.

There are two primary reasons a 7 mm recoils less than an comparably effective .30 cal. cartridge: To match the 7 mm's ballistic coefficient requires a significantly heavier .30 cal bullet; and to drive that heavier .30 cal bullet at similar velocities (for kinetic energy and wind resistance ("time-to-target")), requires more powder. This combination of heavier bullets with heavier powder charges significantly increases the recoil of the .30 caliber.
The .30-30 Winchester is typically limited to short ranges, primarily because of the relatively small case capacity and the 150-grain and 170-grain bullet weights. To compensate for this, Waters necked the cartridge down to use a 7 mm bullet (.284 inches), rather than the original .308 caliber (7.62 mm) bullet. Because it was designed to function in lever-action rifles, the 7-30 maintained the same low working pressure, yet Waters' original design fired a lighter bullet (139 grains) at a higher velocity (2600 ft/s).
A typical .30-30 factory load fires a 150-grain bullet at 2390 ft/s, while the current 7-30 factory load fires a 120-grain bullet at 2700 ft/s. Muzzle energy is just over 1900 ft-lbs for both of these loads, but the lighter weight 7 mm bullet has a higher velocity and flatter trajectory.

[RCS]

The 7-08 Remington (308 necked down to 7mm) was really a military development dating back to the early 1950 period. At this time the FN Factory in Belgium took the US T-65 cartridge case which was 49mm in length (at this time) and necked it down to use the 7mm Mauser S12 bullet. This cartridge fired a 140 bullet at 2750 fps and was called the 7mm Liviano and sold to Venezuela with 5000 new FN FAL rifles in this caliber in 1954. When Remington introduced the 7mm-08 in 1980 it fired a 140gr bullet at 2860 fps -

The 30-30 wildcats have been around since the 1940's or even before. The two wildcats in my photos are 6,5x30-30 Bullberry and 25x30-30 (many others like the 257JDJ & Imp)

These were very well liked for hunting with the Thompson-Center single shot pistol - favorite was the 14 inch barrel.

Remington made the 30-30 into a rimless cartridge called the 30 Remington for pump and autoloaders

photos show the 7x49 Liviano and 6,5x30-30 & 25x 30-30 wildcats

[Woodsy]

When NZ began production of the 7.62x51 cartridge at the Colonial Ammunition Company (CAC) in Auckland in 1960, the first batch included the NATO symbol (a cross in a circle) and later batches had the letter N. This was to signify the ammo was loaded to NATO specifications, not to signify NZ was a member of NATO. The N was dropped in 1962 and all later ammo just had CAC L1A1 and two-digit date. CAC went out of business in the early '80's after losing the Army ammo contract in the late '60's. They continued with .22 rimfire, 12 gauge shotgun, and various centrefire hunting calibres but went downhill with poor management, loss of skilled staff, and interference from accountants who didn't understand the complexities of ammunition manufacture. The post-war (1950-1959) .303 Mk VII ammo from CAC was very consistent and high-quality, winning many international rifle matches. The principle reason for the demise of CAC was the decision to retool the very old .303 machinery for 7.62 production instead of going to new and more efficient machines. After CAC the Army purchased ammo from Australia (the excellent F4 from the old CAC factory in Footscray) but now source their ammo from a variety of suppliers. I purchased the last of the NZ Army .303 CAC Mk VII stocks in 1988 (286,000 rounds) and it sold out in six months!