cleaning old ammo

[RobSmith]

Depends on how old is old .... If the stuff is loaded with cordite I wouldn't think mild tumbling would be much to worry about in terms of powder degradation.

[Surpmil]

Personally I was thinking of a rotary tumbler such as my friend uses. Essentially a large rock tumbler.

Is anyone aware of instructions against tumbling live ammunition from the makers of that type of tumbler? (It makes sense, but I'd like to hear what they say "officially")

Presumably cordite in 'sticks' would be much less prone to this sort of danger?

Also cases where the propellant is packed tight?

[jmoore]

I not saying putting ANY live ammo in ANY sort of tumbler is a good idea, but I wonder where the real threat to safety is most likely to be present. Nor am I saying that the severity of vibration is as great in "normal" transport, but that the time factor can be up to hundreds or thousands of times greater, given that some of this stuff has been "knocking around" for decades!

[Edward Horton]

The words “surplus ammunition” is the biggest misinterpretation in the world of “surplus” that could ever be used. You are not buying a used military M1 Garand rifle, you are buying ammunition that failed military testing standards and was gotten rid of by the military. Repeat, this “surplus ammunition” failed velocity and chamber pressure testing standards set by the military.

And now you are talking about putting this degraded “surplus ammunition” in a case tumbler/cleaner and further abusing the powder inside the case by allowing the powder granules to have the deterrent coating worn away.

Why would you put so much time lovingly restoring and caring for your beloved Enfields and then turn around and fire the crappiest ammunition in the world in them. Now you are talking about further degrading this garbage ammunition by shaking and vibrating the hell out of it and possibly turning the ammo into proof testing rounds.

Are JBS and I the only ones who read the warning in the reloading manuals about ammunition safety.

[RJW NZ]

Hi Ed, sorry to hijack a thread but I hope we a few days along and I'll be forgiven ... On the HT sniper rifle, was the H barrel floated from knox to muzzle, or partially bedded, or ... we're on a small thread called H stock by P07, trying to id a forend he has, but in general thats an interesting question.
ps I have a new baby in the closet, a no1mk3 fulton plus parker hale stamped, in stock as issued configuration. Its been the well looked after property of the RNZ Navy, I'd guess they had a shooting team perhaps. In any case I'll do an expose soon that shows off the stock fultons tricks, unadulterated by years of shooters fiddling with it.

[JBS]

The words “surplus ammunition” is the biggest misinterpretation in the world of “surplus” that could ever be used. You are not buying a used military M1 Garand rifle, you are buying ammunition that failed military testing standards and was gotten rid of by the military. Repeat, this “surplus ammunition” failed velocity and chamber pressure testing standards set by the military.

And now you are talking about putting this degraded “surplus ammunition” in a case tumbler/cleaner and further abusing the powder inside the case by allowing the powder granules to have the deterrent coating worn away.

Why would you put so much time lovingly restoring and caring for your beloved Enfields and then turn around and fire the crappiest ammunition in the world in them. Now you are talking about further degrading this garbage ammunition by shaking and vibrating the hell out of it and possibly turning the ammo into proof testing rounds.

Are JBS and I the only ones who read the warning in the reloading manuals about ammunition safety.

Thank you Ed, I get so tired of fighting this battle. If the gentlemen in the Lab coats working in multi million dollar Ballistics Laboratories tell me " don’t tumble / vibrate clean/polish loaded ammunition" I listen to them!

On a side note remember the part about De-Xed ammo for age in storage, that stuff also shows up as MilSurp.

[Surpmil]

The words “surplus ammunition” is the biggest misinterpretation in the world of “surplus” that could ever be used. You are not buying a used military M1 Garand rifle, you are buying ammunition that failed military testing standards and was gotten rid of by the military. Repeat, this “surplus ammunition” failed velocity and chamber pressure testing standards set by the military.

And now you are talking about putting this degraded “surplus ammunition” in a case tumbler/cleaner and further abusing the powder inside the case by allowing the powder granules to have the deterrent coating worn away.

Why would you put so much time lovingly restoring and caring for your beloved Enfields and then turn around and fire the crappiest ammunition in the world in them. Now you are talking about further degrading this garbage ammunition by shaking and vibrating the hell out of it and possibly turning the ammo into proof testing rounds.

Interesting assertion to make about ALL "surplus" ammunition. Is there evidence to support this?

Talking about this to my friend, he was aware of the issue, but does not feel limited tumbling is likely to make any significant difference. He mentioned some IVI 7.62mm that was about 25 years old and quite inconsistent. He tumbled it without media for about 15 minutes and found this corrected the problem: the powder was caked and this was causing inconsistent ignition, which the tumbling corrected.

[JBS]

Interesting assertion to make about ALL "surplus" ammunition. Is there evidence to support this?

Talking about this to my friend, he was aware of the issue, but does not feel limited tumbling is likely to make any significant difference. He mentioned some IVI 7.62mm that was about 25 years old and quite inconsistent. He tumbled it without media for about 15 minutes and found this corrected the problem: the powder was caked and this was causing inconsistent ignition, which the tumbling corrected.

Tumbling did not correct anything. Your friend is very lucky he did not kill himself. When nitro based powder starts to cake it is a sign of extreme degradation and the nitro is separating from it’s bond with the cellulose. It has a most uncontrollable burn pattern and can produce tremendous chamber pressures. Some times the things people do makes me want to never shoot at a public range again, makes me glad I am able to have a private range on my small ranch.



Reprint of a letter.
Tue, March 2, 2010 10:04:34 AM
From: Dave Campbell
To: Xxxxxxx

It is the policy of Hodgdon Powder Co. to reccommend against ever tumbling or vibrating loaded or reloaded ammunition. Vibration for even short
periods of time may degrade propellants or change their burn characteristics. Vibrating propellants may cause coatings to wear off and edges or
ends to erode.

Dave Campbell
Ballistician/ Customer Service
Hodgdon Powder Company Family of Propellants:
Hodgdon Smokeless Powders, The Brand That’s True
IMR Legendary Powders
Winchester Smokeless Powders, For Loading Professionals
Pyrodex
Triple7
Goex Black Powder
White Hots
Hodgdon - The Gun Powder People
913-362-9455 ext. 117
dcampbell@hodgdon.com

[jmoore]

RJW- Happy news about the baby! Oh, and since this IS your thread you can't hijack it...

Again, Did I EVER recommend tumbling or even bathing loaded ammo? No? So why all the acrimony? I think the questions raised have validity. I merely have a interet in seeing if there actually is test data that can support all these claims of danger. Thanks to JBS for print ing the corporate CYA but it's not data or even study results. I'm thinking that there's good info out there somewhere, I'm just "shaking the tree" a bit to see if any falls out.

As far as statements about surplus ammo go, well...

[Edward Horton]

I don't care what your friends have to say about tumbling ammo, and I don't care what Uncle Joe told you about using a vibrating case cleaner to clean your old ammo.

Some people actually worked at a military depot for over 38 years and even spent the last 25 years as a Master Level Quality Control Inspector. Some Inspectores were even trained to inspect stored military ammunition and kept one of the tools issued to them.



Some of the Inspectors were even dumb enough to volunteered to help set up storage facilities in hot desert countries where you couldn't even get a cold beer after work. Ammunition can be stored in a air conditioned and humidity controlled area or stored under harsh conditions anywhere in the field. When it fails ballistic testing it is gotten rid of by the military, some of it can be recycled and some of it is bought by scrap dealers who sell it as "surplus".



Go ahead and shake the crap out of your ammo and then grease your cases to fire form them. Just remember Ed told you NOT to do either one.
(97% of all errors are human errors and only 3% are actual mechanical failures, so go ahead and add to the human error factor)