Gun show carbines

[lboos]

I get that you don't like the idea your faking it, a lot of Americans seem to think that way, but doesn't change what your doing. If you are a collector it is about preserving history not altering it. Changing it because it suits your idea of history is altering it, not preserving it. I can't just take a Isreali K98k and take the 7.62 markings off it, rebarrel it to 8mm Mauser and call it a WWII K98k, even though your just 'changing the configuration back to WWII standard' and that's how it originally would have been. Your not correcting something if it isn't broken.

I don't think of my self as a serious carbine collector, I only own two, a m1 and an m1a1, I have been thinking about correcting one of them to it's org. WW-2 configuration using WW-2 parts, and I would never think about taking markings off. I hear a lot about if the govt. decides to add on some mod's that it would be "blasphemy" for anyone to dare change it, even though the govt. is the one who 1st altered the carbine, and we all understand why.
As far as your WW-2 K98K changes, that would not be a gun collector, that would be a real life bubba.
Anyway, thanks for your interesting thoughts, I always enjoy coming here, I learn something new every time.

[jond41403]

So that leads to a question for us novice collectors - what do you look for to determine if your carbine is original? I broke down my Underwood and completed a data sheet which revealed it has all of the correct parts it should have had when it left the factory. It needed a lot of love to bring it back to being a presentable and usable rifle. It looks original (patina, type 1, wear, etc.), the part diagram numbers say original, but how do I know it's original? This is a really interesting topic for me since I am currently looking at several other M1s for sale and I really wonder about my Underwood because it was a diamond in the rough when I got it and she became a true diamond when I finished her. After seeing some of the responses here, I now wonder how "original" she really is? Thanks!

The only way I can think of to truly know is to be good at looking for wear patterns. Seems to me if you find an early configured carbine, and the only wear is from early parts and not from later parts, that would be a good indication that it's original. Still doesn't answer the question completely though because two early parts could have been swapped out with two other early parts creating the same wear pattern for the most part. that's where you have to learn to become a detective and learn if there are any wear differences from the manufacturing differences of each of the makers. I have a relatively early Winchester that I know has its original barrel because receiver and barrel finish match perfectly and it has only had one witness mark on the barrel alignment in its entire life which if it had been rebarreled, you would expect two witness marks. if you can match wear patterns on every part in your carbine perfectly, and the finish and patina look the same, there's a good chance it would be original.Just my two cents

[Eaglelord17]

This is another issue with American arms, and actually most surplus in general is as time progresses what is original and what is added/changed/modified becomes harder and harder to tell. What did the original finishes look like? How where they surplussed? There isn't many left in the grease to buy anymore and the amount of people who pulled them out of the grease originally is slowly declining. Really makes it hard to say anything definitively. This is also part of the reason I tend to stick with odder military surplus firearms as the odds of them being messed with are significantly lower than the more popular ones.

[painter777]

the amount of people who pulled them out of the grease originally is slowly declining. Really makes it hard to say anything definitively.

This the reason the records and observations of 40+ years of information gathered by the Michigan Carbine Collectors, The Carbine Club, The Carbine Collectors Club Forum, Larry Ruth and countless individuals observations are so important.
Gov records, Ordnance records, Company records, Company printed newsletters for employees, Gov and Sub contracts researched, TM's, FM's and employees interviewed.
Hours upon hours at the Archives.
Collectors and volunteers who worked with the DCM then CMP to observe and document.
Thousands of Data sheets to look over for comparison. Also add the Original Carbines Auctioned by the CMP.

NOS barrels and parts here in the states and sent as support to WWII allies being pulled from the wrap with markings, finish and milling styles noted.
Knowing who used what type of finish and how they prepped the metal before finish was applied ? Was the Frt sight, rear sight and barrel band on or off when the metal was finished ? How a maker finish assembled the carbine ? The production dates ? Who used what part and when ? Did that maker ever use that type part ? Who transferred what part to who and when ? When did upgraded parts show up? When or were serial numbers assembled in order ? Look at how the same maker changed the front receiver markings over time. Or how the rear receiver markings changed over time and letter / number font / size changed. Same with parts markings... some changed over time.
You also have to Know and recognize the milling / machining capabilities in the 40's...... etc.

Just trying to point out there are many known factors we can look for to tell Originality.
A single part or even 2 changed 2 years after issue will have matching wear patterns.
But what if those 2 parts were never documented as being used by maker XXX ?

Ask firstflabn or Jim Mock how many hours they've spent researching the Archives?
Or the German, Bavarian, Austrian and other countries returns from the lend lease program.
I guarantee it will be more than most here have ever spent reading about a M1 carbine.

Not trying to be rude, just pointing out there are so many factors.......

To Add: You could fill a book on how different makers and Subs Staked the rear sight pin, Or the style and location 'If' they staked the rear sight to the dovetails. Rear Adj Sights- How were they staked to the dovetails and what style / shape was that stake mark at what point in production?
Front sight pin staking styles ?
Who did... Who didn't stake the front sight key? If staked how was it done - What did it look like? .... etc

I agree having to put this much effort in to prove Originality takes dedication and a lot of effort. But by doing so...... "Really makes it hard to say anything definitively" can be overcome. If they can figure out the early Egyptians and the Mayans, putting in the 'Time and 'Research' will give most all the ability to ID a Original as Issued M1 Carbine.

My Tip if you choose to take it, is to Study the Fake Reproduction Carbines. Once you learn those, you'll know a Original Carbine if your fortunate to come across one.
That's what I was told when I started. But I had a card up my sleeve, having my Fathers Winchester hanging on the wall from the Philippines.
Thank You to my Fathers 2 Aussie friends and Allies

[DaveHH]

There were 12M Americans under arms during WW2 I had thought 8M but have recently read that it was 12. There were enough Carbines made to arm half of those people. As far as how many early configuration carbines made it through? It has to be thousands. It was the most stolen weapon of the war, that and 45s. Soldiers stole weapons and brought them home.
Let's say in Petaluma where I was raised the Army data Center during WW2 was called Two Rock. Let's say that the head medical officer at Two Rock was issued a carbine as part of the TOE. It sat in a locker all through the war and it was taken out once a year to qualify or the Doc said "No". Either way it was a safe queen. When the Army changed weapons, the carbine was sent to a depot and put in a rack along with thousands of other carbines. It didn't get rebuilt and it didn't get used. At that point it could have been sold through the NRA for $20 or could have been stolen out of Two Rock and no one the wiser. Bingo, an original configuration carbine. Or there could be a carbine made during 1944 that has some late features like type 2 band and type 2-3 sight. Left the factory that way. It was carried by an officer, never shot and when inspected would not come close to rebuilding. it went into a depot where it left in a white sack or an NRA sale. Another original gun.

Brian Q. Had a pretty fool proof way to identify an original gun, it has 100% of the correct parts and one that isn't. If it was a corrected faker, that AU recoil plate on my Winchester 5.6 would be so far gone so fast you wouldn't see it. Thus my Winchester is thought to be original. Underwood sent 5,000 recoil plates to Winchester in Nov of 1943, my carbine was made in Mar 1944 (and there's another w/ an AU plate, a mirror image of mine in the data base a few numbers off). My Inland I looked over myself. It has everything correct per Chris Albright's fine article but the HI handguard (Stock is also HI) is so close to being a reject I can't see how it made it through. The trench to use the sights is so off that it covers a good portion of the front sight. But Inland was in a hurry in Oct 1944 so it passed into the system. All finish is correct and the shadow is on the barrel with the line where the sand blasting stops on the receiver. I'm saying it is original and since it stays here it doesn't matter. I'd put that up to anyone to look it over and say it is a corrected gun.

If you think that part swapping is a sore subject, you should have been here 20 years ago.

[jimb16]

I remember a lot of arguments about that in the early days on Jouster! Some people got really heated about any parts changing even replacement of damaged/broken parts! And back then, repro parts were fairly rare and easy to spot!

[harley08]

Where did you see these Carbines? I collect M1 Carbines and need more - Email removed, please use the PM feature.

Went to a small antique gun show today and out of 10 carbines, 8 of them were still in the WW 2 configuration, and 2 of them were M1A1's, how did these guns skip the mod,s after WW2, no type 3 barrel bands, the eight of them still had the flip sights etc. were these carbines left overseas after the war ? are all of them fakes ? a few of them looked really good.
There were no rebuild stamps on the wood ? how would a carbine skip the rebuild after WW 2 ?
Are there any real Carbines out there that were left that way ? and how did did they get by ?
Thanks.

[painter777]

I remember my very 1st questions on Jouster, Not knowing I asked:

If a carbine was rebuilt was the stock restamped with the Crossed Cannons by Ordnance? Or for that example the boxed S'G' marking ?
I was totally reamed by about 6 guys being called a Stock Humper and worse. Many others jumping on.... being 'Followers'.

Marcus 'Might' remember and I know if Harlan was still here he would definitely remember. It was Harlan that told me step by step how to load pictures on a computer and how to attach them to a Email. I passed the pictures to both of them. Marcus was trying to buy it from me and took the time to explain what I had. It was a Hi-wood I cut IR-IP stock with a boxed IP and boxed S'G' both had a CC stamped by them. I also had another Hi-wood I cut marked IR-IP that had 2 boxed IP Stamps (Lightly stamped) on it and only 1 Crossed Cannons Stamp between them. I never showed the pictures to the name callers, but kept track of their names and posts for years to come.

Sure enough back when the last couple big sales of CMP Carbines were on, I seen all 6 of these 'Purist' listing their finds and serial numbers. Before your post ink was dry they were running WTB, WTT, WTS adds as fast as their carbines were coming in, 'Correcting' as fast as they could. Just a matter of months before they were bragging about their recent 'Original' finds..... Including many re-posting the serial numbers. Even caught some of them buying Bardalls Fake CC Stamps on Ebay.... back when you could see who the buyer was. I still have maybe a 100~ printed off Auction results showing names and feedback that many would recognize the usernames if you've been on the forums for a few years. I called it 'The List', Anyone remember 'The List' that I put together of Fake Stock Stamp buyers / sellers and those who would turn around and sell 'Humped Stocks' as Original markings. Fellow members would send me the links if I hadn't seen them so the Culprits were added to the list.
4 of those 6 are still around. But there are plenty more that say one thing and do another.

Don't believe all the 'Purist' some are outright liars.
I remember Dave's 5,6 WRA being called out as a Fake because the CC was too crisp.
I said right away if that one is Fake there isn't a real one left. And why didn't he dump the AU recoil plate? Which happens to have left matching milling marks impressions on the ledge.
But some like DaveHH have stood their ground honestly for years, never wavering from their original story. We call that Character where I come from. There are others that belong in that same group as DaveHH.

My Point is there are many out there that shouldn't be throwing stones.
Do what you want with them, your the current caretaker.
Just be honest about it. So the next caretaker will know it's true history.
Surely we owe this to others and especially the Men who served and died carrying these arms in battle.

Didn't mean to get so long winded.......

[DaveHH]

That little 5.6 had one more hurdle to get over to be recognized. It had a real odd ball ordnance ball on the gas cylinder. I put it out there and it was immediately thrown under the bus. "Never seen one like that" "Humped" Blah, Blah. Marty Black just told me it was an oddball marking that's all. And in the last CC copy Marty sent out showed a photo of the mark and asked anyone who had one like it to let them know. After a few months up popped the devil, several were out there, identical to the one on my gun. One guy, I forget who it was PM'd me to let me know it was legit and there was proof now. That gun had scratch marks around the front sight where someone had put one of those ugly flash hiders on it and scratched the area good and proper. In those days a lot of people used front sight scratches as proof that it had been tampered with. Why anyone would go to the trouble to remove a type 3 band and then replace it with a type 2 instead of a type 1 eludes me. Most didn't even know that Winchester assembled guns AFTER they were finished so every Winchester has some scratches around the front sight.

The only calm and sensible person on these posts was Seth who always said everything was faked. One work responses "Fake".

Just remembered to address this from Charlie's post. When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

[painter777]

When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

This is a big part of the reason I look for wear patterns 'BEFORE' a Carbine is Detail cleaned. I documented one here for all to see with pictures being taken as I tore it down.

See my replies from #23 to #38.
#38 Shows the Recoil plate impression Dave and I are talking about.
I've tried to remove the Butt plate on this one about 3 times. I wasn't able to remove and stopped trying, afraid of scarring it or damaging it.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38393&page=3