Charlie, I havn't had time to analyse the thread in depth but these pics may help. My 34 year old daughter just had a baby and now she wants a wedding ! I think guys our age missed the bus somewhere along the line. Let me know if you want more pics of this one. It's in a Newsletter. Cheers. Mike. Attachment 33752Attachment 33751Attachment 33750Attachment 33749Attachment 33748Attachment 33747