Headspace question.

[GBinSC]

Thanks again for the help everyone gave.

[Brian Dick]

The headspace issue is a hot one for some unknow reason to the Lee Enfield Gods. There's a quote that sticks in my head and please don't take offense fellow Americans as I quote it in jest. I'll keep the author of this quote confidential even if water boarded! It goes like this.

"Most of the excessive headspace problem is between the ears of American collectors"

[Edward Horton]

Hi,
A nifty idea, can you advise what effect this has on accuracy and is there any recorded change in velocity?
regards
Roger
Australia

Roger you and many other reloaders probably know this already but I will go into a little more depth to help others understand the o-ring method of fire forming.

In most cases when fire forming cases you can simply seat your bullets long with a light neck crimp, the longer seated bullets touch the rifling and hold the case against the bolt face. (zero head space or zero head gap clearance)

I tried several similar fire forming methods but nothing worked because most Enfield's are long throated and the bullets could not touch the rifling. I also tried enlarging the case necks by passing the necks over a larger expander button and have the cases head space on the neck when fire forming, but this led to split necks.

The rubber o-ring trick was posted in another Enfield forum by a Canadian member and he stated it was an old trick used in Canada to make the word head space meaningless in the Enfield Rifle when fire forming your cases.

I do not have a chronograph so I can't say anything about velocity other than the pressures and velocity should not be any different from shooting neck sized only ammunition. (the bullet isn't touching the rifling when fire forming)

The o-ring promotes accuracy because as the o-ring is compressed it centers the case at the rear of the chamber, and this helps with commercial American cases as these tend to run on the small side in base diameter.

Any time you fire a light weight commercial cartridge case in a military chamber you run the risk when reloading that the case might be warped or banana shaped because of the larger diameter of the chamber. This causes the base of the case that contacts the bolt face to no longer be flat and true or no longer 90 degrees to the axis of the bore.

The photo below is a graphic example of what I described above as a warped or banana shaped case, please notice the angle of the crack at the base of the case and the crack not being symmetrical around the base of the case.

The Winchester case below was either not centered in the chamber when fired or had a thin spot on the case wall and this caused unequal case expansion on firing and the case warped when trying to spring back to it original shape.

The American Rifleman Magazine printed an article about "banana shaped cases" during the 1970s and the effects on accuracy or more correctly loosing accuracy due to misaligned bullets with the bore.

Please remember military cases are thicker in the base web area and designed to shoot in a military chamber, and our commercial cartridge cases are thinner and lighter and NOT designed to military specifications.



The rubber o-ring method of fire forming .303 cases is the greatest thing to happen since buttered bread or perhaps even putting vegemite on bread.

Below, 50 fire formed cases using the rubber o-ring method.



Within reason the o-ring makes any Enfield shootable without replacing bolt heads or worring about head space and case head seperations.



Some rubber o-rings and cheap .312 pistol bullets and you have a fun plinking-fire forming day at the range.

[Edward Horton]

The head space issue is a hot one for some unknow reason to the Lee Enfield Gods. There's a quote that sticks in my head and please don't take offense fellow Americans as I quote it in jest. I'll keep the author of this quote confidential even if water boarded! It goes like this.

"Most of the excessive headspace problem is between the ears of American collectors"

The problem Brian is some people blame the Enfield Rifle for a problem that is caused by the type cases you shoot. These people make comments about "inherent weakness", "weak design", "inferior rear locking lugs" and so on.

In over 40 years of reloading this is the closest I have ever come to a case head separation. I also have never blamed the Enfield rifle for any of this or my American made Springfield 03-A3 which was just as hard on commercial cases.

Brian, the 500 Greek HXP cases you sold to me are the same approximate thickness and weight as Winchester .303 cases, BUT there is a vast difference in how many times these two type cases can be reloaded.
And "someone" told Ed to not use Winchester cases

[Brian Dick]

Ed, Please don't take offense to my posting which was meant to be in jest if you read it. I fully understand and admire all of your experimentation, trials and tribulations in respect to reloading for the LE rifle. I also know the difference between military specification and commercial specification cases. I use the Greek brass because that's what I have and I've been pleased with the results. I've been reloading for the LE for 30 years, that's since I was 16 years old. I full length size because I have too many different variants of rifles and I like to shoot them all once in a while. I've had case head separations many years ago but only because I pushed my brass one load too many so it was my own fault. It was funny too because some old guy was standing behind me at the range in Florida lecturing me about headspace when every one of 50 popped off consistently. My broken case extractor got a work out that day! I have rifles that gauge up to military specification that shoot average groups and also some that shoot above average groups for my skill level which is low marksman class. Whew, that was fun. Keep up the good work!!!

[Brian Dick]

I had some WWII Winchester cases that I used for a long time along with Canadian Dominion WWII cases that were excellent too. If I remember correctly, I got five or six reloadings out of them in a tight '42 date LB No.4 rifle I've had since I was a kid. The Greek HXP brass is the closest thing I've found since.

I've found that most people that criticize the LE action are just sadly misinformed, set in their ways and have probably never owned or fired one. I've converted quite a few Mauser and Springfield shooters over the years and I'm proud of that. I've owned and shot them all over the years and still have a modest collection of many military rifle variants both foreign and domestic. That being said, my favorite rifles in the world will always be the LE No.4 and M1 Rifle. Apples and Oranges they are and I'll always love 'em both!

[Edward Horton]

Ed, Please don't take offense to my posting which was meant to be in jest if you read it. I fully understand and admire all of your experimentation, trials and tribulations in respect to reloading for the LE rifle. I also know the difference between military specification and commercial specification cases. I use the Greek brass because that's what I have and I've been pleased with the results. I've been reloading for the LE for 30 years, that's since I was 16 years old. I full length size because I have too many different variants of rifles and I like to shoot them all once in a while. I've had case head separations many years ago but only because I pushed my brass one load too many so it was my own fault. It was funny too because some old guy was standing behind me at the range in Florida lecturing me about headspace when every one of 50 popped off consistently. My broken case extractor got a work out that day! I have rifles that gauge up to military specification that shoot average groups and also some that shoot above average groups for my skill level which is low marksman class. Whew, that was fun. Keep up the good work!!!

Brian

I knew you were joking and no offense was taken and I also can't imagine any British or Commonwealth forum members criticizing an American rifle with rear locking lugs as a "inherent weak design.

[Brian Dick]

I like my Winchester Model 94's too. I have two, one with lots of character that was built in 1939 and one that's in almost new condition built the year I was born in 1963 that I've never fired. I've got a Lyman peep sight I need to put on the '39 variant one of these days. Another favorite rear locker I have is a Browning 1886 saddle ring carbine in .45-70 Gov't. I have to load light for it since my neck surgery debacle but I still love it. You can shoot BIG holes in stuff with that one!

[Edward Horton]

GBinSC, if you are satisfied that your rifle is OK, will you please excuse us whilst we ponder your question in some detail on the Ammuntion Forum?

I'll create a new thread in the forum shortly, and move this discussion there, as it isn't specific to Enfields anymore...

Go here!:

Maximum Safe Radial Expansion for Brass Cased Rifle Cartridges - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Link above: the line disappears if nothing's below it.

Mr. jmoore

The only "radial" that concerns me are my tires, and as long as they give me good traction and long life I don't care "how fat" they get when I pump them full of air.

The same applies to the brass cartridges I reload, if they fall apart when you reload them, then it's time to look for cartridge cases with deeper tread and a higher speed rating.

For you geeks who want to "see" radial and axial excess case expansion the red and yellow areas below are the parts of your tire that are going to have blowouts.

[torana68]

[QUOTE=jmoore;108527]Welcome torana68, be prepared for more than you asked for! (The regulars have seen it quite a bit before, but its very interesting the first time.)

thanks for the welcome , I read till my eyes drop off and just injest the bits that seem good to me

Mr. Horton , thanks for the detail, I wont say anything bad about Enfield design as I think its pretty good, a few of my relatives had cause to use them over the years so Im quite attached.

....... he stated it was an old trick used in Canada to make the word head space meaningless in the Enfield Rifle when fire forming your cases.

smart people them Canadians, resasonable beer as well
Roger

P.S I like the little coloured stress analysis thing, when it was explained to me it was well before computers and was done with calipers, a piece of wire, drawings on paper, coffee and a chat about metalurgy..... sort of left me knowing where to look on most anything man made for the failure point