Seargent York and 1903

[Surpmil]

http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.Vignet...VATE%20DONAHUE

After the Armistice was signed, I was ordered to go back to the scene of my fight with the machine guns. General Lindsey and some other generals went with me.

We went over the ground carefully. The officers spent a right smart amount of time examining the hill and the trenches where the machine guns were, and measuring and discussing everything."

And probably taking notes...

Didn't one of the Germans call out to York during the action asking if he was an "Englishman"? Would that be because of his marksmanship or because the report of his rifle was different somehow?

There were plenty of good shots in the AEF and by 1918, marksmanship in the BEF was nowhere near as good as it had been in 1914, so I would guess it was the sound of his rifle that was noted.

The York Gallery

[lenb]

Based on the information shown in the York discovery expedition above, they show that all the rifle shell casings found at the site are .30-06. Seems like this at least eliminates the possiblity that Sgt. York used a British SMLE rifle, which would not have used such ammo, but still doesn't provide any conclusive evidence on the others.

Len

[firstflabn]

Hey Jim, I think our positions are really not that far apart. My objection was to what seemed like setting an impossible standard. Your reponse filled out your thinking on the York subject and, thus, I believe I can safely say we are both dedicated to finding the objective truth (or as close as we can get) while having fun torturing every detail in the process.

Since you gave a personal example, allow me one. York's son's lack of knowledge about miltary weapons reminded me of my experience as a volunteer at a local Civil War museum/library. I would consider my knowledge as advanced. Visitors often come in with family stories concerning their ancestor's Civil War service. These people have no more than a very general knowledge of the history and totally lack any detailed knowledge about weapons, tactics, or military organization. It's amazing how often these family stories have a kernel of truth embedded in them - though the details tend to be fuzzy or distorted. These kernels of truth relate to details way beyond their appreciation, but in many cases these details can help flesh out the story. That sort of phenomenon is what I saw in Andrew York's telling of his father's tale. Instead of being disqualified by his lack of firearms knowledge, it could cut the other way - that a partial memory recalled for reasons even he couldn't explain - that Springfield was also a Tennessee town 100 miles away, that the '03' spoken aloud sounded funny - who knows. But, as in the example I gave, an innocent, with opportunity and without obvious bias, can preserve an important clue.

Does that make the case for the '03? No, of course not. But when we can't get to the answer we seek, sometimes we can get to a better questions - and that next question evolved from hypotheses, educated guesses, and what-ifs oftentimes does ultimately lead to our answer. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you haven't already experienced. Here's to the quest - and to that elusive 'AHAH!' moment.

[Jim Tarleton]

Hey Jim, I think our positions are really not that far apart. My objection was to what seemed like setting an impossible standard. Your reponse filled out your thinking on the York subject and, thus, I believe I can safely say we are both dedicated to finding the objective truth (or as close as we can get) while having fun torturing every detail in the process.

Does that make the case for the '03? No, of course not. But when we can't get to the answer we seek, sometimes we can get to a better questions - and that next question evolved from hypotheses, educated guesses, and what-ifs oftentimes does ultimately lead to our answer. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you haven't already experienced. Here's to the quest - and to that elusive 'AHAH!' moment.

I agree 100%. You'll have to relate some of those stories one of these days. I just looked at a shotgun used by "grand dad in WWI" that was manufactured in the 1930's. Broke my heart to tell them. I don't think they believed me.

Jim

[jmoore]

If they found shell casings, then it might be possible to identify the weapon type from which they were fired. If I remember correctly, the firing pin dia. of the M1917 is a bit smaller than the M1903. (I do know that P'14s are smaller yet, but that won't help here.)

Just a thought.

[RobSmith]

Might be possible to further confirm it thru extrator/ejector marks, which would also be distinctive AFAIK.

If they found shell casings, then it might be possible to identify the weapon type from which they were fired. If I remember correctly, the firing pin dia. of the M1917 is a bit smaller than the M1903. (I do know that P'14s are smaller yet, but that won't help here.)

Just a thought.

[Jim Tarleton]

Bear in mind that York was not alone. What are the odds of finding the exact spot York stood? I also understand there is an alternate site found by a US military officer.

Jim

[Pattern14]

Bear in mind that York was not alone. What are the odds of finding the exact spot York stood?

Jim

I wondered about that myself, especially on an active battlefield in 1917-18. I believe one of those sources stated they found German rounds, .30-06, and French rounds all at the same spot.

[Jim Tarleton]

Also bear in mind these men were being shot at and killed. Hard to memorize locations in a forest when your mind is whirling like a gyroscope.

I hunt the same forest every year. Several years ago I found a small clearing in the woods where I killed the largest buck of my life. In the past four years I have searched in vain for that clearing. It can be difficult to find your exact path in a thick forest.

Jim

[Calif-Steve]

These cases have been in the weather for 75 years? They look like what? Little to discover, I'm afraid.