No 4 1/2 and 1/3's

[Peter Laidler]

Bolts were wired to the rifle body and remained as a matched pair but while I am not certain about the woodwork, I don't think it would be logical to match up woodwork on assembly. It was a VAST undertaking and during the Korean war era, was a 20 hour a day operation with 4 hours for care and maintenance.

Don't forget that for the upgraded Mk1/2 and 1/3, the tedious and time consuming process of setting trigger pressures was halved because it could be carried out regardless of the fore-end.

I think I've mentioned this before but while the Mk1/2, 1/3 and 2 were said to allow the use of relatively unseasoned wood, where any warpage would upset the trigger pull, that was only a very small part of it. The principal reason was to speed up rifle production. And the sheer volume of scale tipped the financial balance

[spinecracker]

I found a mention on Mr. Skennerton's website bulletboard (http://www.skennerton.com/bb.html) that the FTR program at BSA for No.4 Mk.1/2s and Mk1/3s was from 1954 to 1958. Besides that, I have nothing except for what you kind people have been able to dig up. I will go down and look the rifle over again tomorrow and see if it is a 1953 BSA FTR. If so, I can add something new to the rich and varied history of the Lee Enfield Rifle. If not, then I can still drool over the rifle until someone throws me out of the store...

[spinecracker]

To add to the knowledge base on this little known topic, I checked the rifle again today, and it is a 1954 BSA FTRed No.4 Mk1/3, originally a Long Branch, with the original marking on the buttsocket and receiver removed, and new serial number (A85##) matching on the receiver, bolt, magazine and forend. I did not see any markings that would indicate service in any particular country post FTR. With Brady check and tax, it would come to about $330 US. I am quite tempted to buy it, even though things are very tight. I have been asking around at other forums, but there is hardly any information out there. I don't think anyone even has a ballpark idea of how many No.4s went through the BSA FTR program from 1954 to 1958, and I am not sure if the serial numbers would be of much help, although I am trying to find out serial numbers from 1954 to 1958 to see if there is a pattern. Why do I bump into uncommon Enfields when I do not have the cash?? lol

[SpikeDD]

Spinecracker,

I have about 15 of these BSA FTR's and working on at least two more. All the 54's seem to be done in exactly the same fashion. All markings removed and a new "A" prefix serial number allotted. The wood ranges from converted Mk.I forestocks to brand new 50's dated ones. New BSA barrels and in most cases, new BSA bolts and bolt heads. They are also all fitted with milled Mk.1 rear sights marked, "B". I find that interesting as BSA didn't manufacture a milled Mk.I rear sight during WWII production. There may be, at least for the 54' dated ones, a series of serial numbers that may yield a range for production numbers but from what I can tell, the fun starts in 55. For some reason in 55' BSA seemed to change the nomenclature, that is, instead of reading FTR 1955 it just reads B 55. I have two of these and one has serial number A 79. Apparently the same continued for 56' and one of the rifles I am working on actually retained the rifles original serial number and instead of everything being scrubbed, all the previous markings were merely lined through. It was a Maltby rifle, originally. It seems for some reason in 55', the serial number sequence started over again and hung in there for what seems like 55' and 56'. Krinko's example, a FTR 1957, seems to suggest the nomenclature reverted back to the original in 57' ?

Who actually knows? I sure don't and the above is plainly speculation given the limited resources.

[spinecracker]

Spike,

Hmmm...I had guessed that BSA did something funky with the serial numbers, based on an earlier post of yours on another forum. I wonder what the 1954 serial numbers began at, and ended at. The rifle I looked at today had the replacement BSA bolt and bolt head, and the forend was a modified No.4 Mk.1 type. The milled rear sight has the "B" stamp. How many 1954 BSA FTRs do you have, if you do not mind me asking? How would a serial number of A85## fit in with yours? With your obvious knowledge regarding these rifles, would you think that $330 all in for a 1954 BSA FTRed No.4 Mk.1/3 would be a reasonable amount to pay? If I did buy this rifle, I would have to square it with my wife first, so any helpful pointers would be greatly appreciated lol.

I feel a serial number survey coming on...

[SpikeDD]

Spinecracker,

A quick dig and I managed to find 8 FTR 1954 rifles. There are 3 more floating around someplace, according to my files. The serial numbers are as follows:

1. A 9339
2. A 10487
3. A 16312
4. A 16815
5. A 30557
6. A 32743
7. A 33578
8. A 43344

Your serial number, if only 4 digits, falls earlier than my earliest number. As for the price, well, given these rifles are of particular interest to me and if it was in very good shape, I would pay that price. I would certainly try to get it down a bit but it's not to crazy a price in my opinion. If you are a shooter and this rifle has a very good bore, being a FTR, it's as new as they come.

[spinecracker]

43,344? I didn't think that BSA would have been able to FTR so many rifles in 1 year. I did find a reference that stated "(p)roduction ceased at BSA-Shirley in the late 1940s, and in the mid-1950s the rifle fabrication machinery was sold to the Pakistan Ordnance Factory in Wah", so what kind of dent would this have put in BSA's ability to FTR No.4 Mk.1s to Mk.1/2 and Mk.1/3 configuration, especially as they were apparently replacing multiple parts, including the barrels? My mind is boggled.

[Thunderbox]

43,344? I didn't think that BSA would have been able to FTR so many rifles in 1 year. I did find a reference that stated "(p)roduction ceased at BSA-Shirley in the late 1940s, and in the mid-1950s the rifle fabrication machinery was sold to the Pakistan Ordnance Factory in Wah", so what kind of dent would this have put in BSA's ability to FTR No.4 Mk.1s to Mk.1/2 and Mk.1/3 configuration, especially as they were apparently replacing multiple parts, including the barrels? My mind is boggled.

They probably weren't manufacturing new receivers, barrels or other parts, so didn't need the full production machinery. At that time there must have been millions of existing spares available from MoD stores or from the trade, plus BSAs own stocks, plus access to the dozens of sub-contractors in the gun trade. BSA had something like a dozen plants just in the Birmingham area, plus a very large WW2 workforce to hand. I imagine the FTRs were a welcome use of spare capacity in the depressed 1950s....

[spinecracker]

Thanks, Thunderbox - another tiny gap in my horrendously miniscule knowledge base plugged . I didn't know that BSA was so spread out over Birmingham, or that its capacity would have been able to handle so many FTRs. Maybe these rifles are not as uncommon as I think - they just may not have surfaced yet in great numbers, which would make sense as it wasn't too long ago that Enfield scholars weren't even aware there was an FTR program at BSA in the 50's...

[Peter Laidler]

I'm glad that Spinecracker has found another reference to the disposal of the BSA rifle making machinery to Pakistan. BSA were merely (?) sub contractors to the Ministry of Supply, to make No4 rifles. Nothing more or less. And when the war ended, they were pushed aside so that with the reduced workload, the MoS factories could carry out the work. A bad choice really, to let Fazakerley loose, but there you go....... The rifle making machinery was supplied free by the MoS and on condition that it was kept on a care and maintenance basis for 10 years (I think.....), after which BSA could dispose of it. Which they did. The now redundant old Fazakerley No4 plant went into store in an old secure ex RAF bomb dump near Thame/Aylesbury until disposed of as scrap many years later. All/most of their L1A1 rifle stuff went to Lithgow and their poor quality Sterling SMG machinery was sold off to Sterling who made great use of most of it (but NOT the archaic induction brazing equipment that distorted the casings like they were going out of fashion) to up production and sell hundreds of thousands of the magnificent little L2A3 SMG's

Without any doubt, BSA used their machinery to do their own huge commercial FTR programmes and bought up vast amounts of small arms from UK Ordnance for commercial sale to whoever wanted vast amounts of it! They also did Browning .50 HMG's too because we have one. Captured from the Argentinian submarine (was it the Santa Fe.....?) that was left stranded in South Georgia and it clearly carries the BSA FTR 1956 marks.

There another load of useless Enfield Rifle history

Incidentally, I was asked to look at an absolutely SUPERB - , and I mean superb, L42 based on a Mk1 BSA 1955 FTR. But had to tell the prospective buyer that good as it was (but the telescope still didn't boresight centrally...... a bad mistake!), the BSA 1950's FTR programme was a commercial enterprise for export and while it was also under the auspecies of the Crown Agents, it wasn't for the MoS who oversaw the rifle factories for the War Department as it was then. I suppose that some No4T's did pass through their net but quite how it would have re-entered the UK MoD in the 60's, then get flagged up in the L42 programme was just beyond me. And before you ask, the owner/seller later told me that he'd done it