A very long shot - No1MkIII S#16229

[enfield303t]

Ed there are rules just no one obeys them.

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[Edward Horton]

Ed there are rules just no one obeys them.

In war there are no rules that govern people fighting for their own beliefs and their very existence.

The very first battle engagement by the Russians and Germans for the battle of Berlin took place between captured Germans soldiers fighting for the Russians who engaged Frenchmen defending Berlin in the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French division) The French Charlemagne SS were the last defenders of Hitler's Führerbunker, and these Frenchmen joined the German SS to fight the spread Communism.

Over 70,000 French civilians were killed by Allied bombardments during World War II.

[Claven2]

In war there are no rules that govern people fighting for their own beliefs and their very existence.

The very first battle engagement by the Russians and Germans for the battle of Berlin took place between captured Germans soldiers fighting for the Russians who engaged Frenchmen defending Berlin in the 33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne (1st French division) The French Charlemagne SS were the last defenders of Hitler's Führerbunker, and these Frenchmen joined the German SS to fight the spread Communism.

Over 70,000 French civilians were killed by Allied bombardments during World War II.

If you are interested in the the SS Charlemagne division and its unceremonious end, take a read through Anthony Beevor's "Fall of Berlin". The gist of it is that by April 1945, the French in the SS were not so much fighting for ideals as they were because their choices were to surrender to the allies and be shot as traitors or surrender to the Russian and be shot for being SS. Not much of a choice.

These Frenchmen had the one of the highest casualty rates and lowest surrender rates of the war. In Berlin, they literally did fight to the last man with no option other than to try and win in vain. It's kind of a sad story. Even more interesting, for nearly 2 weeks these men held up the russian advance allowing countless German Heer troops and civilian women to escape to the western axis of advance where they surrendered to a much more forgiving enemy. When the Red Army took Berlin, few SS men were left un-shot and few women of any age were left un-raped.

To this day, Berliners refer to the Soviet war memorial in Berlin as the "tomb of the unknown rapist".

[Edward Horton]

I knew this posting was going to degenerate into this............................

Manchester United was an "elite" team until it started loosing.
And don't get me started about British soccer-football fans and the atrocities they have committed.

[bouletbill]

Rugby is a thugs game played by gentlemen , football is a gentlemans game played by thugs (so I was told when I was young). A lot of that pent up energy and aggression of peacetime soccer hooligans , when tamed and trained , can make heroes in time of war .

Dresden has been in the news again because "they" don't like us having a memorial for our bomber crews . To my mind , it's none of their business . However, I do think it's 65years too late and just stirs up old bitterness . But to keep on quoting the old propaganda figures of 250,000 dead is just plain mischief . Dresden city officials estimated up to 25,000 and dear old Gobbels just added on an extra "0". Mud sticks .

Who benefits from war ? Governments , industry , .......... milsurp collectors ???