Safety Question

[Alan de Enfield]

I wonder, how and under what circumstances would the Birmingham Proof House proof a DP rifle? Wouldn't they have known the meaning of DP and rejected it at once?

The proof house does not pre-judge any firearm. They are asked to test it and they do.
They do not check for headspace, they just fire a 'proof load' and if it doesnt explode/fall apart or bulge the barrel it passes.

I guess that if they had one of the DP's with a hughe great hole thru' the action/barrel that they may notice it

[Jc5]

The proof house does not pre-judge any firearm. They are asked to test it and they do.
They do not check for headspace, they just fire a 'proof load' and if it doesnt explode/fall apart or bulge the barrel it passes.

Yes, but they have a defined viewing stage before testing any proof loads, to determine suitability for proof, as directed by the Proof Act. I am surprised that they would agree to proof a DP rifle. I know that they will not conduct a private proof of a government rifle unless it has the Sold Out of Service stamp. Is anyone on these boards associated with the Proof House who can comment?

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[Thunderbox]

Yes, but they have a defined viewing stage before testing any proof loads, to determine suitability for proof, as directed by the Proof Act. I am surprised that they would agree to proof a DP rifle. I know that they will not conduct a private proof of a government rifle unless it has the Sold Out of Service stamp. Is anyone on these boards associated with the Proof House who can comment?

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The Proof Houses are commercial organisations which make a great deal of money on the back of the the UK government's rafts of firearms legislations (eg proof certificates for de-acts).

I can assure you that they will test anything that is submitted to them, and make no distinction as to provenance or appearance. A great many DP rifles have been submitted for proof (DPs are one of the main sources of original early SMLEs for UK collectors, as there are so few of these types in circulation), and none have ever failed. The Proof Houses do not check headspace or any other specification feature - AFAIK they just make a quick check of the bore to ensure there are no obstructions. Thus barrel bulges are sometimes detected and picked up.

[Peter Laidler]

Just a minute jc5. I have a SA80/L98 and it was submitted to proof (for reasons irrelevant here.....) and it sailed through of course. There is no sold out of sevice stamp anywhere. Comments

[Jc5]

I know that they will not conduct a private proof of a government rifle unless it has the Sold Out of Service stamp. Is anyone on these boards associated with the Proof House who can comment?

My area of study is the pre-WWII era, so most of my sources are older, and I admit things might have changed in the past 60+ years! My source for the Sold Out of Service stamp as a requirement for commercial proof is an article on the Proof House by E.G.B. Reynolds from Guns Review, 1966. I suppose the original requirement was to exclude stolen arms. From the comments on this thread, it seems that Proof House standards have changed (or slipped?).

[Thunderbox]

I think even by 1966, the Proof houses couldn't require sold out of service stamps - by that date there were hundreds of thousands of unstamped surplus rifles on the market. Possibly such a requirement was in effect prior to WW1 or during the inter-war years, but there are plenty of target (ie civilian owned) Enfields around from those days without any SooS stamps.

[Jc5]

I make no assertion--I'm just quoting Reynolds. Keep in mind, I am NOT suggesting that any DP rifle is safe to fire, and I'm not taking issue with any of the facts presented in this thread. I'm just trying to learn more about how/why/under what circumstances the Birmingham Proof House would prove a DP rifle, and how their policies might have changed over time.

Thunderbox, I'm not sure I follow you about the target (civilian owned) Enfields. If you mean the commercial rifles --a.k.a. Lee Speeds, and target rifles made on the Lee Enfield pattern by BSA and LSA---they would not need the Sold Out of Service or Sale Permit stamps because they were never in government service. Such rifles always had commercial rather than military proofs. Or are you referring to ex-service rifles being on the market in the 1960s? How soon after adopting the SLR did the British government begin selling off their stockpiles of service rifles to civilians?

[Thunderbox]

I make no assertion--I'm just quoting Reynolds. Keep in mind, I am NOT suggesting that any DP rifle is safe to fire, and I'm not taking issue with any of the facts presented in this thread. I'm just trying to learn more about how/why/under what circumstances the Birmingham Proof House would prove a DP rifle, and how their policies might have changed over time.

Thunderbox, I'm not sure I follow you about the target (civilian owned) Enfields. If you mean the commercial rifles --a.k.a. Lee Speeds, and target rifles made on the Lee Enfield pattern by BSA and LSA---they would not need the Sold Out of Service or Sale Permit stamps because they were never in government service. Such rifles always had commercial rather than military proofs. Or are you referring to ex-service rifles being on the market in the 1960s? How soon after adopting the SLR did the British government begin selling off their stockpiles of service rifles to civilians?

Ex-service rifles seem to have appeared on the market as early as the 1920s - not surprising, given that the War Office appears to have disposed of about 1/2 million rifles during the inter war period. Its quite hard to date any private use of a military rifle, but sometimes the form of civilian proof markings gives a clue.

The first surplus No4s came on the market at least by 1948 -I have a No4 here that the old gent asserted he bought from AJ Parker that year.

[Jc5]

Ex-service rifles seem to have appeared on the market as early as the 1920s - not surprising, given that the War Office appears to have disposed of about 1/2 million rifles during the inter war period.

Where would one look for documentary evidence of such disposals? Any official documents or mentions in the press of the day? The old Parker and PH catalogues mention some ex-service rifles, but that doesn't tell us anything about the quantity. This might be straying too far from the thread topic of DPs and the proof house, in which case I can start a new thread on it.

[Badger]

Here's a few links to other threads where Peter and others have discussed the pitfalls of DP and ZF marked rifles ...

ZF marking on Enfields?

DP Stock Marks Query

DP Rifles

Anyone with rifles so marked should read them all thoroughly before you go and shoot it ...

Regards,
Doug