Define What is Correct

[DaveHH]

Many, probably most carbines were carried by Officers, Signal men, staff people, truck drivers etc. These carbines were not shot much either in the war or after. The ones that went to infantry personnel like on Iwo Jima were shot to pieces. These are the ones with new or non original barrels. Additionally the barrels are good for many rounds 15K, or more, that's a lot of shooting. So we have a typical carbine issued to a cook handed down to more cooks who qualify with 50 rds once a year and after 1965 they were gone. They were rebuilt and the bayonet lug and adjustable sights added sometime in their life. Now we have them. The cook got an M14 then an M16 and Clinton destroyed what he could.

[painter777]

That old carbine or garand that grandpa or uncle brought home from the war could have received treatment during the war... anything could have been replaced and there is no documentation to either prove or disprove this.

I can guarantee that no reproduction parts were installed on carbines used by American forces during WWII, Korea or Vietnam.

Charlie-painter777

[BrianQ]

Just don't put me in the same category as those which justify things that are not true.

You put yourself there, not me.

[DaveN]

I would rather collect a rifle that has most likely been in action then one that never left the states. In the mini series THE PACIFIC the girl has a choice. The captain that is in school in 44 and hasn't been out of the states yet, or the pfc who just got back from hell. Even though he's all dinged up and he's damaged the pfc gets the girl. True story.

I would rather collect history and be able to get 3 for the price of 1 collector grade rifle.
But that's just me.

[mpd1978]

Poor condition doesnt mean history. Unless you can document a particular weapons use in the theater, I will take the collector grade ones and/or original ones . But thats just me, and to each his own.

I would rather collect a rifle that has most likely been in action then one that never left the states. In the mini series THE PACIFIC the girl has a choice. The captain that is in school in 44 and hasn't been out of the states yet, or the pfc who just got back from hell. Even though he's all dinged up and he's damaged the pfc gets the girl. True story.

I would rather collect history and be able to get 3 for the price of 1 collector grade rifle.
But that's just me.

[Bill Ricca]

Everybody will continue to describe their definitions of Correct and Original. I can tell you 20-30 years ago there was no question as to the definitions.

Original was the way it was delivered from the manufacturer to Ordnance.

Correct was either Original Part or a part or accessory that could have been issued during a specific time period.

Today everything has changed in the minds of many. I constantly see on the rifle boards a new guy asking for a "Correct" sling for a mid 1950's Garand. Some of the answers are warped out of sight.

Examples "Go to XYZ company and you can get a cotton web sling for $8.95"

or "ABC company has slings in either leather or web, both which could have been issued during that time".

The facts are web slings were in one supply system and by the mid 1960's they still had many left over from WWII. What a soldier was issued depended upon what the unit had in supply at that time. I remember in 1964 seeing "yellow slings" on a few M14's in basic training, but I did not know at that time what "Khaki" was.

When I try to correct the answers with "Our soldiers could not have been issued imported slings from India or China in the mid 1950's", or " In the 1950's nobody was issued a sling made last year", I get answers like "Originality is not important, only the color and product of the sling, so it looks like them".

It goes to show that many today (I estimate 95%) of the interest have no connection with the military history of this nation, or any connection with the guys and equipment that protected us. Things have changed greatly as far as attitude.

[Hercules Powder]

It goes to show that many today (I estimate 95%) of the interest have no connection with the military history of this nation, or any connection with the guys and equipment that protected us. Things have changed greatly as far as attitude.

Sad but true.

[painter777]

It goes to show that many today (I estimate 95%) of the interest have no connection with the military history of this nation, or any connection with the guys and equipment that protected us

Great post Mr. Ricca.

It's an insult to the men and women who carried these weapons by knowingly putting reproduction parts on these Historical Artifacts.
To Honor those whose countries had asked them to fight its battles.
To show the respect for those on the home front that sweat and sacrificed so much to put these weapons in our troops hands.
A country that bonded together at a grave time showing strength and determination along with its unmatched production skills set on the highest level.
Our job as collectors, or maybe better said... We the current caretakers- To care for and preserve these artifacts for future generations.

Charlie-painter777

[jmark]

Great post Mr. Ricca.

It's an insult to the men and women who carried these weapons by knowingly putting reproduction parts on these Historical Artifacts.
To Honor those whose countries had asked them to fight its battles.
To show the respect for those on the home front that sweat and sacrificed so much to put these weapons in our troops hands.
A country that bonded together at a grave time showing strength and determination along with its unmatched production skills set on the highest level.
Our job as collectors, or maybe better said... We the current caretakers- To care for and preserve these artifacts for future generations.

Charlie-painter777

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...9/DSC07358.jpg

Well said. We owe a lot to the greatest generation.

[G26ster]

Here's my take as a 'new guy" to USGI M1 Carbine collecting/ownership. I base my thoughts on over 40 years of antique and classic car restoration and collecting.

I am the caretaker of a piece of history. However, a piece of history without indisputable documentation (provenance) is just another "example." Is it collectible? certainly. Does it have history? Of course. The point is that, without the provenance, it can not be truly called Original/Unrestored.

In the carbine world, original/bring backs are rare, and if I had one it would not be altered in any way. However, depending on provenance, all carbines to me fall into several categories.

1. Original/Unrestored - Exactly as it left the factory, with no replacement parts or repairs, and indisputable provenance.

2. Correct/Restored - A carbine with all the authentic correct period parts, whether or not they are the original parts.

3. Shooter - A carbine primarily meant to be used for competition, hunting or plinking, without regard to period correctness or authenticity of parts. I believe the vast number of carbines now fall in this category due to the number of owners in the chain of ownership (no one knows who changed what), lack of provenance, the availability of genuine USGI parts, and the rise of repro/fake parts.

I don't think I'll ever own an Original/Unrestored, as I could not invest the amount needed to own it, and I probably would be very hesitant to shoot it. I do own some Shooters, a few of which I am trying to upgrade to "Correct."

Of course all this is just MHO, based on owning and restoring "other" collectibles. Remember, I'm the "new guy" here and pay homage to the known experts, so be gentle if I misspoke in any way