Savage No4Mk1*(T) Questions

[gsthreeeight]

Gentlemen,

My 1942 Savage No4Mk1*(T) is all Savage marked , including the foresight, with the following exceptions:

both barrel bands
forestock
barrel.

Both handguards have the last four digits of the SN penciled underneath.

I have attached images to help in obtaining answers to the following questions:

1. Do any of the markings on the Enfield 5-groove barrel indicate a year?

2. Has anyone seen a similar beveled crown on the muzzel of an Enfield barrel?

3. Would the forestock have been replaced by H&H during the conversion to T configuration or is it more likely to have been the result of a repair/refurbishment?

NOTE:
After removing the handguards I found that the barrel lacked lateral clearance with the forestock and that the front end of the front handguard was bearing on the barrel and holding it firmly in place. It appeared as if this part of the (T) conversion was never finished.

Your comments and observations would be appreciated.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Amatikulu]

yes, the barrel is marked /45 on the third to last photo - indicating 1945 barrel fitted

[buffdog]

The forestock is Canadian Long Branch marked with the C Broad Arrow. This is acceptable because Savage and Long Branch used each other's parts, depending upon availability.

The cocking piece is early issue. Check the side of the sear area - it could have a LB joined stamp of Long Branch.

The S51 is Holland and Holland, London, England, who did the conversion.

The markings on the muzzle are commercial proof marks for exported firearms. It looks like the upraised arm and NP of the London Proof House.

The ENGLAND is a country of origin mark, required on all US imported arms since 1968.
.

[Hal O'Peridol]

Looks like a typical Savage 12C-14C serial range "half convert". A batch of these showed up within this serial range with the same features, including 1945 replacement barrels and never had been fitted with a scope. Nice looking rifle.

[Peter Laidler]

When a rifle was sent to H&H it already had a proven accuracy standard - the criteria for a sniper rifle. Therefor H&H were only contracted to do ONE thing (or things.....) and that was to strip the rifle, fit the pads so that the bracket mating surfaces were parallel with the bore. Then fit a mount that matched exactly with that of the pads. AND when tightened up, the centre line of the bracket EXACTLY matched (or collimated) with the bore of the rifle. Then fit a telescope to the bracket.

The only other thing that they would do to a rifle was to replace a 'non spec' backsight with a modified Mk1 type. They were not contracted to do anything else. No barrel changes, no fore-end changes, no nothings.......... Not even shoot them for accuracy, because they were already accurate when they came in and with the same fore-end, they'd be as accurate when they went out. Final zeroing was always the responsibility of the end user..............., after all, it's a snipers rifle!

Your barrel change was done elsewhere after 1945. H&H were simply contractors

A largeish batch of Savage rifles were kept at H&H for conversion in the event of bombing or loss of production at BSA so that production/continuity at H&H wouldn't be compromised. At the end of production, those that had been started were finished and H&H paid up to a certain day so they made hay while the sun was shining and got on with finishing what they could. Yours and the other 'less telescope' rifles were one of those.

Some DP and skeletonised rifles have been seen with holes in the sides and I suspect that these were partially finished at the cut-off date and returned incomplete.

[gsthreeeight]

Buffdog:

Thank you! The Long Branch stamp on the Forestock simply didn't register with me. The cocking piece is "S" marked. Sorry for the slightly blurry image. I've noticed several other Savage LEs used the early style.

Peter:

I had formed the apparently mistaken impression that none of the Savage rifles sent to H&H had been tested for accuracy prior to shipment as they were used to fill the gaps in the supply of Enfield Rifles, and that the 2-groove Savage barrels were removed as a part of that conversion.

Referring to Lance's article in the Knowledge Library ("Back to the Savage made examples, these rifles were also re-barreled with British made 5 groove barrels and British foresights as one might suspect that the later examples were originally fitted with 2 groove barrels."), who then would have made the barrel change?

Are there examples of a converted Savage "less scope" with the original Savage barrel intact?

I kind of suspected that the rifle might have been a "hasty completion" based on the incomplete wood work in the forearm and my suspicion that the "/45" stamp on the barrel was a date.

This is all endlessly fascinating. And regardless of this old rifle's questionable past, the icing on the cake is its impressive accuracy. (See post under Range Reports.)

Thanks all.

[MJ1]

The Savage question keeps popping up, I have no comment other than I do love shooting them.

Cheers
...MJ...

[gsthreeeight]

MJ1,

AMEN to that.

I see we suffer similar affictions.

One Scotch, One Whiskey, One Beer!

Attachment 23442

1943 MkIII* MA Lithgow
1955 No4Mk2 Fazakerley (unissued)
1942 No4Mk1*(T) Savage

[Alan de Enfield]

There is a fairly knowlegable chap who occasionally posts on this forum and who has written a book on the subject of 4T's - I quote from page 121 :

"....Savage MK1 YES but Savage MK1* snipers, definitely NO ....."

"..... very detailed research has shown that rifles converted by Holland and Holland came direct from the BSA Shirley and ROF Maltby factories. Unless a Savage Mk1* rifle passed a higher than average accuaracy test, was marked TR, conformed with the five-groove barrel criteria (unusual for a US made rifle) AND got itself into a batch from Shirley or Maltby then I can say quite confidently that it was not converted by Holland and Holland........"

and on page 122 :

"..... Any Savage Mk1* sniper rifle should be viewed with a great deal of suspicion. There is also a very small but distinct mark on Enfield converted rifles that would be present on an Enfield converted MK1* (T) from Savage ......."

[Roger Payne]

Alan,
I think your quotes are right, but a little out of date. Peter wrote the book a number of years ago & I think he (though he's perfectly capable of telling us himself) would agree that Savage Mk1* conversions most definitely were effected. Indeed, some Savage rifles were scoped up; mainly Mk1 rifles but some Mk1*'s
WERE completed (I've owned a couple & still own one completed Mk1* T). Having said that, I would concede that most of the 1*'s I've seen or heard of have been the late incomplete 'less scope' conversions. I've also had both Savage's & early Maltby conversions bearing what appear to be original 2 groove barrels.......never say 'never' (or 'always') with Enfields!

Our friend's rifle is genuine enough, although I wouldn't like to be too sure about by whom & when the forend was replaced (unless it's just off our field of view there does not seem to be a rifle serial on the underside of the forend. If it were replaced by the military they generally stamped the serial along the wood, from front to back).

ATB