Need help with first lee enfield. Green painted 1944 longbranch.

[CanadianAR]

I posted this over at cgn, my usual haunt. I bought as a collector piece, but intend to fire it occasionally. The buttstock is mismatched but is marked ZF. So need opinions on that and also want to know more about the green paint, and where this rifle may have gone. Just got my first Lee Enfield. Its a 1944 Longbranch No4 MK 1*

Serial 68L1987. Id been wanting an enfield for a while but couldnt find one that really lured me in. The high retention of green paint is what did it for me on this one. This one was from John at Marstar.

It is all matching numbers. Bolt, receiver, mag, forestock.
I dont think this piece has ever been refurbed or FTRd. It still retains 90% of its tropical green paint. And no FTR markings. Socket had just the serial. receiver has just original date and such. If anyone has more info Id love to learn about this rifle. Will be shooting it saturday.

Information

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[paulseamus]

Canadian AR

Nice looking rifle.

Concerned about the ZF stamped on the butt, even if the butt does not match the rest of the rifle.

I would suggest that you do not shoot it unless you have had it carefully examined by an Enfield experienced Armourer/Gunsmith.

Whilst the butt may have been changed, that could have happened before the rifle was ZF'd.

"Warren" is a retired armourer based in Canada.

You may be able to PM him to determine who is best to inspect and guage the rifle to determine if it is safe to shoot.

Paul

[CanadianAR]

I took the rifle down to inspect it. I cant find any faults. The last owner, he is a massive gun business owner, and long time collector, (owner of Marstar) said the head space is good. I checked the reciever for cracks, sprayed with solvent, used white out on the locking lugs, seem to engage 60% of the surface on an empty chamber. Bolt has no slop. Bore is great.

[Peter Laidler]

The green paint doesn't add or detract from anything. Together with lashings of grease beneath the wood line, it was another authorised means of adding another protective coat to weapons during the war. Nothing more! After the war, when the huge FTR programmes commenced, the old 'controlled corrosion' method of blueing/blacking/browning and the overpainting were abandoned and bead blasting, phosphating and painting became the norm so the scamic green paint was abandoned - except in asia where yours probably originated from.

The ZF mark is an obinous sign. In fact, without sounding toooooo pessimistic, it is a death knell. I realise that Paul (thread 2) is sounding a little (but only a little I might add.....) more optomistic regarding this fatal mark but it looks to me that the butt isn't a recent addition and the ZF doesn't indicate Zimbabwe Forces or Zaire Frontier Force either!

I won't go on and on again, but I suggest that you read up an all the threads on this forum that go into some detail about this mark. But be advised that to true, real Armourers within the whole Commonwealth small arms system, the initials ZF indicate '....can only be repaired at factory repair level where they have full access to all the gauges applicable to the remanufacture of the weapon'. Not at the huge REME Base workshops or someones garage or on an amateurs work bench with a file and some snadpaper.

Read on...............

[Patrick Chadwick]

Not at the huge REME Base workshops or someones garage or on an amateurs work bench with a file and some snadpaper.

Well that's good to know - you just can't get snadpaper these days.
But seriously Peter, why was the ZF marking applied to the wood, which could easily be accidentally/deliberately swapped out in the rifle's later history?


Patrick

[CanadianAR]

Agreed, seems like a stupid place to mark something. Like marking a car unfit for the road on the tire.......

And yes, I know the green doesnt add to anything, was just something I liked.

So basically there is no way of knowing when the butt went on, and whether it was a recycled piece or the zf was applied to this rifle.

I will have to source an armourer to check it over.

Thx guys,

[Peter Laidler]

Ah, yes.... Good question Pat. The ZF mark is on the butt so that it is there for all to see. And taking C-AS's good but backhanded swipe example of the car and the tyres. I'd invite you to go to any big Base Workshop disposal yard where the vehicles are lined up for scrap or disposal. If, as we see here day after day after day, a 10 ton lorry or the smallest Land Rover has been condemned for scrap and sale/disposal because it has been dropped off a dockside crane or run over a small mine and has the chassis cracked or distorted, they don't mark the chassis with ZF or BER or CAST mark. No...., they paint it in big yellow or white words/letters on the windscreen. And there's nothing wrong with the windscreen! But everyone can see it.

Just like your Butt C-AR. It's where Armourers do it, every other Armourer knows where it is, it's where they all look. And just as it's an accepted standardised system of letters, so it's the accepted norm of marking. You wouldn't stamp the body as it might be repaired and afterwards the mark would still be there. Paint it on.... it'd hardly big enough to daub a ZF on is it?

Believe me, those real Base workshop examiners are clever blokes, they've been doing it since Pontious was a Pilot with eye's like shxxe-hawks. I'll give you a little example........ No I won't bother. All I'll say is that once again, I'd suggest you read the discussion thread that took place a year or so ago. But let me just say that some of the ZF features are pretty much insignificant, such as the height of a worn out magazine stop face. It'll just give pizz-poor feeding. Others such afire damaged rifle could be dire

There are several opinions and mine is but one small, insignificant one among the many.

[Badger]

Here's a few links to other threads where Peter and others have discussed the pitfalls of DP and ZF marked rifles ...

ZF marking on Enfields?

DP Stock Marks Query

DP Rifles

Please read them all thoroughly before you go and shoot it ...

Regards,
Doug

[Brian Dick]

It could be one of 50 different reasons that's it's been ZF'd. Some of the more prominent reasons have all been discussed here before. You've got some studying to do!

[jmoore]

The green paint doesn't add or detract from anything. Together with lashings of grease beneath the wood line, it was another authorised means of adding another protective coat to weapons during the war. Nothing more! After the war, when the huge FTR programmes commenced, the old 'controlled corrosion' method of blueing/blacking/browning and the overpainting were abandoned and bead blasting, phosphating and painting became the norm so the scamic green paint was abandoned - except in asia where yours probably originated from.

I think the green paints DOES add something precisely due to your explanation! It shows it was in Asian service, and retired in more or less in it's "as issued" condition. It's a collector thing rather than a practical using issue. I like finding rifles with the green or tan paint on the exterior surfaces, just because it isn't as durable as the Suncorite rebuilds. That green color is pretty distinctive.

The "ZF" marking is a big red flag to be sure from the use standpoint. But if it was replaced by a civilian in order to change the length of pull or some such, then there may be clues. Pull the buttstock off and see whether it's likely it saw service with that rifle. (there's usually some old paint transfer if it was installed long ago. Etc., etc.) But regardless, get it checked before use!



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