Buy the gun not the story

[Patrick Chadwick]

A general question about US law and so-called "bringbacks".

A US rifle is issued to a US serviceman.
It is not given to him.
It does not become his personal property.
It is placed in his possession to be used as required by the service.

If he leaves the service, he no longer has any reason or entitlement to possess the weapon.
He cannot give it away or take it with him. It is not his property and he has no rights over it.
It remains the property of the US armed forces.

The service can dispose of the weapon as it pleases.
The serviceman cannot dispose of it at all.

Right or wrong?

[Rick the Librarian]

That pretty much sums up my understanding of rifles in the service. I believe the overwhelming majority of so-called "bringbacks" are when the veteran obtains a rifle like he used from another source, like a gunshop or sporting goods store. The story may start out as "This is like the rifle I used in (fill in the blank) war". Over the years, the veteran (or his relatives, after he passes away) may gradually change the story to, "This is the rifle I carried in ______ War."

[Chuckindenver]

ecception...officers that retired were offered to keep issued side arms. pre 1960,s
i own my Uncles 1911A1, i have the D day bag, pilots ammo, holster, extra mags ect, he was a B24 pilot, and retired as a Capt. he was offered to keep his personal side arm. he did.
my Aunt, had thrown it in the trash, i fetched it from said trash bin...and i own it.

[browningautorifle]

officers that retired were offered to keep issued side arms

Did they have to purchase them Chuck?

[Chuckindenver]

i belive so, if i remember right what he told me..mind you i was 16 when he told me about it...he had to give 25.00 for it, the holster i have was not the one he was issued, the MN state police had taken the pistol at one time, when he was on a fishing trip, when he got the pistol back, the shoulder holster was long gone, the one i have is a 1918 dated belt holster.
he said he had to sweet talk the police chief at the time to get it back, and tell him about a secret fishing hole...lol
i alos have a Type 99 Jap rifle he grabbed in a pile of rifles.

[browningautorifle]

That sort of follows a story I heard at one point. Very similar.

[Mike D]

A general question about US law and so-called "bringbacks".

A US rifle is issued to a US serviceman.
It is not given to him.
It does not become his personal property.
It is placed in his possession to be used as required by the service.

If he leaves the service, he no longer has any reason or entitlement to possess the weapon.
He cannot give it away or take it with him. It is not his property and he has no rights over it.
It remains the property of the US armed forces.

The service can dispose of the weapon as it pleases.
The serviceman cannot dispose of it at all.

Right or wrong?

Sounds good to me!

Many "bringbacks" are just STOLEN. As we know, plenty had the "pull" or means to get one home.

And I'll bet some of those firearms also became ones "just like I had", because the real story was not told.

[Col. Colt]

We live in a different Century - and I can tell you the attitudes were different in the previous one. We tend to see the world through modern, Politically Correct and legalistic eyes - things were a bit more open and direct in the early and middle twentieth century.

The reason there are so many M1911 pistols from WWI without any "A1 updates", etc, is that a lot of them came home in dufflebags after WWI. It might not have been the individual soldier's issued serial number - but there were lots of pistols (and rifles) on the ground (along with their bearers) after a major battle, and that has been true for all time. I personally know of four bring backs, all "stolen" in the legalistic point of view. Being sixty, and raised by and surrounded by "The Greatest Generation" in my formative years, I can tell you that the attitudes of the time were that they were "earned in battle", and if the soldier felt a strong bond with the weapon due to some dark times together, his peers did not regard it as "stolen". They were all aware of the Army's rules, and some declared them "lost" and had it taken out of their pay, some just substituted a battlefield pickup or pulled one out of an unlocked rack and brought it home.

One, unfortunately long disapeared through a deceased family member, was an M1 rifle my Dad brought home when mustered out of the 82nd Airborne in 1946. It was not the one issued to him, of course. Along about 1962, our next door neighbor in Kansas City let me (then ten years old) use the master bathroom off his bedroom - as I returned to the living room through the bedroom there was a 1918 BAR proped up in the corner. I asked Dad about it, and he told me our neighbor had been a BAR man in Korea. And, more recently in a Western state, a high ranking officer died in a plane crash, and his widow (who I know personally) found his Vietnam issued M14 in his gun safe, complete with FA switch installed. (It was returned to the military, due to it's Full Auto status.)

Finally, my exwife's deceased Dad, a Military Policeman who served in Europe from D-Day plus 3 and remained in the Reserves, attaining the rank of Warrant Officer and running Guard and Reserve Training Camps in his state every summer into the 1970's, long ago showed me the 1911A1, belt and holster that he wore throught WWII. When you see the movie "Battle of the Bulge" where the MP Sgt. notices that the "American Convoy" of trucks and jeeps at the crossroads is all Germans in US uniforms, that is Max, who came to the US from Germany in the 1920s as a boy, and recognized their mannerisms.

Computers did not exist, and records of issue, handwritten in ledgers were not easily accessed, in a time when you took your weapon with you, from unit to unit. And once the war was over, there was little interest in bookkeeping - only in mustering everyone out and home as quickly as possible. Today it's easy to keep exact and accurate track of a unit's weapons - except when they go "lost in combat" - just like back then. "The Past is Another Country - they do things differently there" (A title to his book Another Country) - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC CC

PS - Another Country is an excellent book on pre-war America. An example of "unbelievable" behavior today, was Cooper's Southern California High School - where the ROTC "Raised the Colors" every morning in full military uniform, with Bugler, Sword carrying student officer, and students bearing M1903 Springfields in formation!. Hard to imagine that scene today - but it was every morning in the 1930's. CC

[firstflabn]

Can anyone document a WWII-era prosecution by either civilian or military authorities for theft of semi-automatic USGI small arms? Disciplinary action of any sort?

[Calif-Steve]

My Dad told me a story when he was in the US Navy. The XO of Dad's cruiser was going home for the weekend. He had to pass through a USMC check point to grab a cab, San Diego(?). The Marines were checking every 3-4 sailor and the XO ended up being 4th in line. They had him open his bag and promptly found a M1911A1 pistol. They called for the Officer of the Day and he was personally escorted back to the ship. The XO left the Navy just a week later. All done very quietly as well.