Dreyse needle gun - I need help

[slovakia]

I have a chance to buy this rifle - Dreyse needle gun.
rifle is in original condition? or is mixed from another gun? I do not like the front collar.

I do not know the most about what model of rifle is it?

is it any later update?

Thank you for any advice.

vladimir.

Information

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[villiers]

A lot would depend on the price. It´s certainly NOT in excellent condition. I´m sure that the other Patrick´ll come up with some help.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Who knows?

I do not like the front collar.

You were quite right to be worried by that, as it looks like the front end of the FIRST CARCANO - which was the 1867 needle conversion of a percussion rifle-musket type, not the Fucile M91 !!! Note the bayonet lug below the muzzle - a musket feature. And the barrel is numbered to the action body.

On the other hand, the bolt assembly looks like one from a Dreyse needle rifle. And the number dos not match the barrelled system.We thus appear to have the weird mix of a Dreyse bolt fitting what looks like a Carcano barrelled system.

And the trigger guard is also not from a Dreyse model. They all had a rather sharp fold behind the trigger bow, not the soft fold seen here. And were made in brass. Yet the stock looks like a Dreyse ... curioser and curioser!

So it is not a pure example of any kind of Dreyse needle gun that I can discover. But what it it?

It could be a clever piece of Bubbary, but I think it is just too clever for the typical gun fudger. A much more exciting thought is that it just might be ... At this point, we must divert for a bit of history.

Up to the beginning of the 1860s, the Sardinian-Piedmontese troops were using the Model 1844 percussion rifle, really a rifle-musket with a large bore and a Thouvenin spike in the chamber to expand the bullet. After the kingdom of Italy had been created in 1861, this was developed into a needle gun on the basis of work done by an inspector at the Turin arsenal, one SALVATORE CARCANO. In the meantime, the French had introduced the Chassepot, which had an improved sealing system, and the new Italian rifle was the "Fucile da fanteria trasformato a retrocarica" i.e. the infantry rifle converted to breech-loading.

This rifle was used in the capture of Rome by the young Kingdom of Italy in 1870. Not the Vetterli-Vitali, which came after the event. Nothing is more ridiculous in the world of gun hype than people selling the later 6.5mm conversions of the Vetterli-Vitali as so-called "Garibaldi" rifles. Garibaldi died many years before these conversions were implemented!

Could it have been an Italian experimental example, made up in the course of Salvatore Carcano's development? Not probable, because the system is dated 1869 - too late. But note that the 1869 is not stamped as one block, which would be normal practice for arsenal production, but 18, followed by 69 separately applied.

I suspect that it is not private "Bubbary", but a proper arsenal- or at least armory conversion. Done by who? They must have been desperate in 1869, which may help to pinpoint the likely army. At this point someone else can use their fantasy.

As to the bore: yes, it looks horrible, but the rifling is so strong that the lands can be cleaned up, even if the result is to make the bore 1/10 mm larger. Who cares? You are not going to be using factory ammo!

Vladimir, I am a sucker for such old bangers. I would point out to the seller that it is not an original Dreyse, has a tatty bore, and then be prepared to go to, say, 350 euros for it. The most ghastly Chassepot wreck brings more than that, and original Dreyses are into serious four-figures. For less than 300 - grab it and run! For the challenge of getting it going again and the fun of working out how it came to be as it is, with the chance that it is something historically very interesting.

Get it if you can, we can conduct further studies later!

[Patrick Chadwick]

After investigation, I am further inclined to see this as an arsenal or armory conversion or update of an earlier rifle. The musket style front band with the foresight blade looks like that on the much older M/41 Dreyse needle rifle.

Nothing Italian about it, I think. More likely what the Germans call a "Notstandsgewehr" - an emergency conversion or upgrade - in this case at the time of the Franco-Prussian war. Definitely worth getting if in the price range I suggested in the previous post.

[slovakia]

Thank you all for your help.
Today's auction ended. final price is € 1051.
I did not buy it. I think it's a high price for its condition.

classification rifles:
Wüerttemberg Modell 1857/67

k&c marking means Klett & Cie in Nürnberg

Wrong: barrel Bands, should be Steel, Not brass.

Missing Part of the rearsight

regards, Vladimir.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I think it's a high price for its condition.

Yes it is, considering that your chance of obtaining spare parts is roughly 0.0 x nada.

[sail32]

I would suggest you try to obtain a copy of “The German Rifle”, By Walter, John. The book has information on German needle guns.