Long range .303

[Beerhunter]

Nice to know that someone out there agrees with me!

If you are in Germany, how come you can use the pro-hunters when its against EU law except for hunting?

I remember the Directive way back. At the time the UK Government gave us all expanding ammo on our FACs automatically so as to cover the Directive. However the 1997 Act put the ban on their use for target shooting into primary legislation by moving them into Section 5 with an exemption for hunting.

Thus I have two entries in my FAC for .22 RF for example. One lot fort Target Shooting and another covering expanding ammunition for hunting.

[Alan de Enfield]

Kynoch (in the UK) do - or did - make a MkVII round with a flat based 174 gr bullet.

Have a look at the link below - in particular post 17 showing pics - but maybe worth reading the whole thread.

Bullets for the .303?

[Patrick Chadwick]

If you are in Germany, how come you can use the pro-hunters when its against EU law except for hunting?

So Who says so? Where? Which law?

I must repeat myself. I doubt that anyone can cite a specific European Directive that bans the type of bullet we are discussing, but I look forward to being enlightened. And a soft-nosed spitzer-type bullet is not expanding ammunition in the sense of a dum-dum bullet - or the hollow-point projectiles that seem to be popular with pistol shooters, or projectiles deliberately made to be highly frangible.

All lead-filled bullets will expand to some extent when they hit something hard. I once fired a 520 gn bullet from my 45-70 Sharps at a thick steel plate at 50 meters. it didn't just expand - it disappeared, leaving the plate looking as it it had been soldered all over. So is someone out there claiming that the use of soft lead bullets is illegal?

I seriously would like to know the background to this, as there are enough people over here who would like to ban anything and everything, and it is a good idea to be prepared.

Note: there is more than one EU directive, so "the Directive" does not specify anything usefully. If you can cite a specific Directive I shall look it up and study it. In such matters, one must get away from hearsay and look at the sources.

[Beerhunter]

Please let's no fall out over this. Until I get time to do the research here it is from memory. In the early 1990s there was an EU directive that was much discussed in the UK shooting press. The UK Government dealt with it by a blanket derogation (is the the word?) which led to us getting two entries for each calibre of ammunition in our FACs - one regular and one for expanding.

In the 1997 ACT the government moved all ammunition and projectiles "designed or adapted to expand" into Section 5 with the exception for hunting.

Soft-point IS designed to expand, that's why we use it, as is some hollow point. However some hollow-point target projectiles have hollow point from the manufacturing process, that is to say: they are not " designed to expand" and so we can use them - and I do. BTW these last points have been back of forth with the HO and ACPO and the above is where we are in the UK today.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Please let's no fall out over this.

That is not intended. What is intended is to point out that people should not blindly accept restrictive interpretations on a more-or-less hearsay basis, but take the trouble to read the source information. If those concerned do not take this trouble, they are at the mercy of those who wilfully distort the interpretation to suit their own purposes, usually in a restrictive manner.

In this instance, you may be thinking of the

COUNCIL DIRECTIVE of 18 June 1991 on control of the acquisition and possession of weapons (91/477/EEC)

of which I now provide an extract:
....
Category A - Prohibited firearms
1. Explosive military missiles and launchers.
2. Automatic firearms.
3. Firearms disguised as other objects.
4. Ammunition with penetrating, explosive or incendiary projectiles, and the projectiles for such ammunition.
5. Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.
(my underlining and marking as bold text)

Category B - Firearms subject to authorization
1. Semi-automatic or repeating short firearms.
2. Single-shot short firearms with centre-fire percussion.
3. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is less than 28 cm.
4. Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.
5. Semi-automatic long firearms whose magazine and chamber cannot together hold more than three rounds, where the loading device is removable or where it is not certain that the weapon cannot be converted, with ordinary tools, into a weapon whose magazine and chamber can together hold more than three rounds.
6. Repeating and semi-automatic long firearms with smooth-bore barrels not exceeding 60 cm in length.
7. Semi-automatic firearms for civilian use which resemble weapons with automatic mechanisms.

Category C - Firearms subject to declaration
1. Repeating long firearms other than those listed in category B, point 6.
2. Long firearms with single-shot rifled barrels.
3. Semi-automatic long firearms other than those in category B, points 4 to 7.
4. Single-shot short firearms with rimfire percussion whose overall length is not less than 28 cm.

Category D - Other firearms
Single-shot long firearms with smooth-bore barrels....

....etc. etc. There is no other instance of the word "expanding" in the directive.

Let us look more closely at the only sentence containing the word "expanding".

Category A - Prohibited firearms
....
....
5. Pistol and revolver ammunition with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition, except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting, for persons entitled to use them.

Dissecting this sentence, we have:
Pistol and revolver ammunition ... (i.e. it only refers to handguns. There is no mention of rifles or other "long firearms".)

...with expanding projectiles and the projectiles for such ammunition... (which does not specify what exactly constitutes an expanding projectile, thus providing a loophole for the restrictors to interpret as they wish)

...except in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting... (which is the case, I imagine for most of us)

... for persons entitled to use them. (As documented, for instance, by a firearms licence).

There is no way that I can infer from the above, that a particular type of rifle bullet, suitable for hunting, is therefore forbidden for target shooting. In fact, the intended ban (for handguns) is specifically excepted "in the case of weapons for hunting or for target shooting".

I regret to say that it appears that with the 1997 Act you refer to, British shooters have been screwed yet again (sorry, but it really is the apt word) by a deliberately false interpretation being first of all propagated as EU legislation (incorrect, see above) and then made into British law - and, of course, blamed on the EU. The restriction is a British invention, not EU legislation, and thus it does not exist in Germany. The generally prohibited ammunition is specified in A 4) above. I shall continue to use ProHunters and anything else that is not prohibited by A 4).

QED.

Those who would destroy our sport are trying this sort of thing continually. The EU Directives are public documents, did you all read them? Sorry, I realize that's an unfair question - we all trust too much that those considered to be responsible read them and correctly interpret the stipulations. I leave it to your judgement whether you consider this trust to have been justified in the matter discussed here.

Moderators: this is a presentation of factual information on legislation that affects our legitimate activities. And legislation is a fact, not a political argument.

[BritishBeer]

BB,

What cal is your Musgrave?

.308. Has absolutely no type markings but is a fairly standard UK style target rifle.

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:51 PM ----------

I imagine that once most countries agreed to never use hollow point bullets in a war as part of the treaty I've forgotten the name of, the government decided to limit who has them without needing them for hunting.

Interestingly though the .308 match rounds I normally shoot have a hollow at the tip to form a 'bubble' to improve accuracy.

[Robert303]

Hello Patrick,
I do not have my copy of the law to hand but the reason the Pro Hunters will be banned for Target Shooting is that after The Firearms Amendment Act 1997 ALL bullets that were designed to 'Expand' became prohbited except for hunting. The mention of the EU refers to an earlier ruling that tried to do the same thing but far from 'Gold Plating' it the UK basically ignored it which is why I had .455 Manstoppers in my Mark VI Webley.

[Alan de Enfield]

The (UK) Frearms legislation was amended in 1997 as follows :

Prohibited ammunition: expanding ammunition and missiles for
expanding ammunition

General 9. In section 5(1A) of the 1968 Act (weapons and ammunition subject
prohibition of to general prohibition), for paragraph (f) there shall be substituted the
expanding following paragraph—

ammunition etc. . . . . "(f) any ammunition which incorporates a missile designed or
adapted to expand on impact;".
Expanding 1O.—(1) Section 5A of the 1968 Act (exemptions from requirement of
ammunition etc.: authority under section 5) shall be amended as follows.
exemptions from
prohibition. (2) In subsection (4) (shooting of animals)—
(a) after the word "acquire", in the first place it appears, there shall
be inserted the words ", or to sell or transfer,"; and
(b) for paragraphs (a) and (b) there shall be substituted the
following paragraphs—

"(a) he is authorised by a firearm certificate or visitor's firearm
permit to possess, or purchase or acquire, any expanding
ammunition; and
(b) the certificate or permit is subject to a condition restricting
the use of any expanding ammunition to use in connection
with any one or more of the following, namely—

(i) the lawful shooting of deer;
(ii) the shooting of vermin or, in the course of
carrying on activities in connection with the
management of any estate, other wildlife;
(iii) the humane killing of animals;
(iv) the shooting of animals for the protection of
other animals or humans.".

ie - expanding ammunition can ONLY be used for 'hunting' and not for target shooting.

It apears that the problem may be the interpretation of 'expanding' - cartainly all the gunshops I use view 'soft-points' (or anything that is not jacketed) as 'expanding amunition'.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Thank you gentlemen for confirming that the "expanding" problem is a home-grown UK invention. The sneaky trick is to blame it on "EU law". That is, surprise, surprise, word-twisting. The EU issues Directives, which are intended to be implemented as national laws. Without wishing to get into what may be construed as politics, the UK has the reputation of being able to ignore such directives for decades if they go against the interests of, say, the finance sector...

[Mk VII]

No need to blame it on EU, it's a direct outcome of Cullen and Dunblane, and one of his specific recommendations.