Thank you Thunderbox. I couldn't remember specifics about the cases I'd heard about but your post has jogged my memory. Yes, they had aftermarket springs fitted! The springs were not finished smoothly on the ends, leaving a sharp step which created the grip.
Just to add to what Peter is saying, here's a pic showing the cam lug on top of the cocking piece. If this is missing, opening the bolt will not be engaging the cam lug which would make bolt lift very easy. It will also be causing a dangerous situation where the striker can be present through the bolt face while cycling the action until the cocking piece engages the sear. This is because the lug would normally be holding the cocking piece and striker back a little in the short cam groove once the handle is lifted.
Could it be the bolt cam and lug that's worn? (Open attachment 45849 to view).
I just got off the phone with my shooting pal Scott. He says his cellphone has a HD Movie camera built in so I should have some motion pictures after breakfast when we go shooting tomorrow morning. Hopefully, he will be able to post them to the internet and I can link to them OK. My crude device to check the cocking force required is just that crude, but, it appears to be about 10 pounds. I am trying to reach another shooter and see if he has a fish weighing scale that might work and be more accurate than what I was doing. I will be sure to get a photo of the cam and lug with my Nikon.
(Start with the rifle UNLOADED and with the striker forward (fired)).
20. Engage the hook of the trigger tester over the cocking piece and pull back. A pull of 7 to 9lb. should move the cocking piece. With the rifle fully cocked, a pull of 14 to 16 lb. should move the cocking piece.
21. If the pulls are heavy, test for a bent striker. If they are light, change the mainspring.
21. If the pulls are heavy, test for a bent striker. If they are light, change the mainspring.
And rust! (Or dried crud).
Actually, that could conceivably be the problem. Crud could be stopping the forward motion of the striker in the down position so that when it stops on the primer it stays put when the bolt is rotated so the cam doesn't fully engage. OK, that's a shot in the dark but easy enough to check out. Just unscrew the bolthead and have a look.
Testing spring weights with a trigger pull gauge. No1 MkIII (& III*) (not all pictured)
trigger, first pressure 3 to 4lb
trigger, second pressure 5 to 6 1/2lb
main spring, fired position, 7 to 9lb
main spring, full-cock position, 14 to 16lb
extractor, 7lb
bolt head retaining spring, 10 to 16lb
butt trap spring, 2 to 3lb
Details of how to do these tests properly are in The Lee Enfield Story, starting about page 164
Nope.......... The striker CANNOT stay put when the bolt is lifted regardless of whether the bolt if full of sh....., er....., crud and debris UNLESS the safety stud of the cocking piece is broken. This is a mechanical safety feature because when the bolt is lifted, the bolt rotates. The cocking piece CANNOT rotate with it because the tongue is....... Anyway, the safety stud transfers from the LONG cam groove into the short cam groove thereby mechanically lifting the striker clear.
The MOST strange thing about this mystery is that of all the hundreds of years experience by real Armourers on this site, from Son, Tanky, Skippy, BruceinOz, Brian at BDL and Thunderbox and me to a lesser extent (sorry if I've missed anyone out.....) and the hundreds of knowledgeable enthusiastic amateurs PLUS the mechanical engineers in their own right such as JM and Breaky (again...., sorry if I've missed anyone out), is that not ONE of us has EVER encountered a bolt that lifts to this extent.
As a bit of an aside, the striker CAN stay down due to a mechanical fault such as a broken safety stud on the c/piece but hundreds of tests by generations of Armourers in their classrooms has shown time and time again with a blank, that when this DOES occur, then you CANNOT close the bolt with sufficient force to fire off the round when you load a single round into the chamber. And if you load from the magazine, the rim of the round sliding up the bolt face will foul on the protruding tip of the now defective bolt/striker. Telling or mentioning that isn't being a clever arse, it just shows a deep understanding of the most intricate parts of weapon technology
Anyway, I'll just say that again for you to ponder. Not ONE of us or ANYONE else on this wide ranging forum has EVER encountered a bolt lifting to this extent. In fact, not one of us has come up with a rational (and even some totally irrational it has to be said.....) answer that cannot be ruled out What does that say? Go on......... truthful answer
Incidentally, the free length of a new striker spring should be 3.41" if anyone's interested
Last edited by Peter Laidler; 09-19-2013 at 05:43 AM.
It is 5:35 a.m. local time and it is time to get my English Springer Spaniels fed before I go put on the feedbag myself when I meet up with Scott and Tommy.
Peter, with the broad range of experiences of all you fellows here on the forum, and no one ever experiencing bolt handle movement to this extent, it is easy to understand the level of doubt about what I have reported. If I were in your shoes, I would doubt it as well given the background of all of you gentlemen. That back ground is the reason I stopped here first for some assistance, as there are numerous forums with varying degrees of knowledge on the internet. As I stated in my first post, I am new to Lee-Enfield rifles, this is my first I have owned, the first I have held and while I personally have not shot it yet, I like the rifle very much. While this thread can be difficult to follow, as there have been many inputs to solve my dilema going in several different directions, my responses have been truthful. It was a week ago today that the rifle was fired and the bolt handle moved to horizontal. I have never seen that happen on any bolt action in my lifetime. Having been an active outdoorsman and competitive shooter for many years and seeing many other people shooting their firearms in shooting events and hearing their stories, I think I can safely say all of these other people have never had an occurance such as this ever arise either.
So, after we meet for breakfast, Scott, Tommy and I are going to the range to shoot and with Scott's HD cellphone movie camera, we should have some visual evidence, assuming that the problem wasn't the position of the Moon in conjunction with Mars during the Autumnal Equinox or some d*** thing that I can't explain. Much like the problem with the rifle. I will be checking back in after the range session when I get home and I will take a few photos of the rifle/parts for visual inspection, perhaps they will shed some light.
Thanks for everone's input and patience with the rifle and me.
Well, Scott, Tommy and I did indeed go out to the range this morning and Scott fired the rifle while recording the video on his cellphone. I need to go to my spent shell box to count the empty rounds, but the bolt handle came to horizontal twice and nearly horizontal once more and is on the video. I will post a link to the video when Scott gets it downloaded on U-tube.
When I got home I took a few photos and the lighting isn't the best, we vacated the range because some weather was coming in and it was getting rather dark when I took them ... hopefully they turned out usable.
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Miss Bonnie
Well gents, here are a few pictures of the old girl. I hope they show up OK. I will post a video link when I get it.
I got into my spent round box and did a headcount from this mornings trip to the range. Eleven rounds total fired, 10 by Scott and one by me. Happily my old body held together, however, we did have one case separation. Here is a link to the video. Scott is doing the shooting and the guy in the orange shirt is yours truly.
Very useful video! First, if the cases are coming apart with military or factory "new" ammo, then you likely have excessive headspace. Which is why it's less than desirable. Puts you out of the fight until the front portion is removed...One more thing to sort, but it's probably easier with the SMLE than the No.4!
The "auto bolt lift" seems on first viewing to occur more when the bolt is not fully bottomed out, but that could be an optical trick, so no conclusion there, except that's the opposite of what I would have thought.
But the massive rub marks between the butt socket and bolt handle shows that there's a lot of action going on that ought not. Suggesting that relieving the underside of the handle in that area might stop the reaction. (Recall my previous theory that vertical play of the rear of the bolt in the raceway is a prime culprit.)
One test: With either no round or a spent round in the chamber, close the action so that the striker is cocked. Push down on the top rear of the bolt, then release. Use a punch, pencil, screwdriver, etc. to ensure the force is straight down with little rotational constraint. Try this with the bolt handle touching the butt socket and then with the handle slightly raised so that no contact is made...
ETA: It could be that the case head separation is also due to the auto bolt lift! Due to the inclined plane nature of the locking lugs, a bolt that is opening during pressure would give the same results as a static "excessive headspace". But this seems fairly unlikely because if the bolt was lifting significantly under pressure, then it wouldn't stop when the rotation was complete...Hmmm. where's a high speed camera when you need it? Would have to be well over 4,000 frames per second because barrel time is only 0.002 second or less. (Did have a fellow do motion captures of modified M14 hammers at 10.000 frames per second, but it was in a lab. Not too useful for live firing exercises!)
Originally Posted by Son
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