My Carbines

[Mikesm44]

Hello all. New to the forum. Also new to collecting carbines. I had been into English arms, Webly's and Enfields mostly, but one day at a gunshow I randomly picked up a National Ordinance. The guy who sold it to me said his uncle was a National Guardsman during the LA riots and that he carried it during that time. I've since learned that most of those were Alpines and it is probably pretty impossible to track them down anyway. But having been born in Los Angeles I ended up buying it. I've been more and more interested in them since then. Both of the ones I own have the full sized slides on them, so I do not expect any problems. The second one I bought from it's original owner. I have also acquired a Universal that I don't know much about. I got it in a trade. I also have an Auto Ordinance that I shoot a lot and have kind of played around with. It is currently in an Inland stock. Finally I have an Underwood, but I am currently trying to sell it. It was a mess when I bought it, the rear dovetail is completely milled off, and it had no trigger and the stock was some kind of homemade thing I think. Anyway, now its in a repro paratrooper stock. So, take a look. I would love any info you can give me on the National or the Universal.
I also have a small collection of magazines. I don't know what any of them are, but I can list the letters on their side.
S-O, IA, SS, AI, UN, U, G-Q, UU

Attachment 46150 Auto Ordinance
Attachment 46148 National Ordinance
Attachment 46149 2 National Ordinances, Auto Ordinance, Universal
Attachment 46147 2 National Ordinances, Auto Ordinance, Universal
Attachment 46151 Underwood

Thanks.

Information

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[JimF4M1s (Deceased)]

Mike,

Welcome to the forum. We are a compilation of newer and older carbine guys.

I'm not much help now as I am on a road trip up into Washington state. You might want to try the search feature in the task bar to help answer some questions. Guys will also jump in and give information.

Enjoy the forum.

Jim

[USGI]

Mike,

If you haven't already found the M1CarbinesInc.com website, you will find a lot of information there on your commercial carbines. Here's a link that will take you directly to the pages on the commercial guns. http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbines.html
Nice carbines you have there, thanks for letting us take a look! - Bob

[Mikesm44]

@USGI yes I have found M1CarbinesInc. That is a great site. I tried to get in touch with them, but keep getting error messages in my email. One of my National Ordinance I believe is an unusual example.

@ JimF4M1s I have tried the search, but most of the info that comes up is about the National Ordinance Remingtons. With some pretty convincing arguments to not fire them.

Thank you both for your responser.

[Bruce McAskill]

National Ordnance made carbines from 1960 till about the mid 70's. The early ones used mostly USGI surplus parts while they made their own receivers and barrels. Four separate blocks were made serial number wise over the years. It seems that National Ordnance used demilled receivers for many of their production. Others was made overseas and were considered to be soft. There is no way to tell what carbine was made with what type of receiver. They also made carbines under the name Alpine, Rowan-Becker and Santa Fe. They made an estimated 50,000 carbines. Universal carbines are also considered to be in four different groups. The early ones were made with USGI parts. Later they had to make all of their own as the more they had to make the quality seems to have dropped. Their last ones made are considered to be a step above junk compared to their originals.

[Mikesm44]

My Universal is for sure not USGI. It is tapped for the scope mount Universal made for their own rifles. I knew National made the Alpine and Santa Fe. I have been on the look out for one, but I have never heard of Rowan-Becker. I'll have to check that out. I thought the National Ordinance receivers were made in Ohio? or is that just some of them?

For National Ordinance what were the four blocks of serial numbers and can you date a rifle from them? I have one in the 7,000 range and one in the 11,000.

[USGI]

Mike,

On that link to M1CarbinesInc. that I listed in post #3, scroll down to "Rowan and Becker" and then click on the picture of the cartridge case head just to the right. It took me awhile to realize that you could open up such a wealth of additional information by knowing where to click! - Bob

[Mikesm44]

@USGI

Very informative indeed. Thank you.

[Neal Myers]

Your mags were made by Standard Products/Inland/Seymour Smith/Inland/National Postal Meter/Union Hardware/Quality Hardware/Underwood. (I think I got the order right.)

An inexpensive book you might find interesting: "US M1 Carbines, Wartime Production" by Craig Riesch.

As we age, our memory sometimes plays tricks on us. The uncle's NG unit would never have had commercial carbines like National Ordnance or Alpine, only USGI carbines. After WW2, there were literally millions of carbines stored in US arsenals, so there would have been no reason to buy commercial carbines.

Neal

[Mikesm44]

@Neal Myers thank you for that info. I will check out that book. I have quite a bit of catching up to do on carbines.

As far as the carbines used by the National Guard, I think you are correct. It did not make sense to me that the National Guard would be so ill equipped, but I do know that during the riots about 1,000 Alpine and National Ordanince carbines were purchased by local law enforcement. I would imagine that the average person was unable to tell the difference and so in the mythos that grew up all the carbines were locally bought even if that were not true. I didn't necessarily believe the guy I bought it from, but my father used to tell me mostly the same story. One of his friends used to work at B&B Guns in the Valley and he would always tell me that during the '65 riots the cops came and cleaned out the place. I always thought that he was making a point about how unprepared civil services are, but there was truth to his story.