Ross bayo made into a theatre knife

[A. F Medic]

WW II Canadian Theater Knife From Ross Bayonet - Classic War Blades

Information

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[browningautorifle]

We have lots of those around here for some reason. Not so many scabbards though...

[boltaction]

There is a good discussion of items like this int he Ross Rifle Story. In about 1942, the Cdn gov't sent several thousand Ross bayonets to PAL cutlery to be converted into fighting knives. They show up quite frequently. They are to a specific pattern, though. A lot of other Ross bayonets were ground down or modified here between the wars, and after, for personal hunting use. I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that these ones being sold by this vendor are 'theatre" conversions. Unless there was documentation by a serviceman stating he did this and carried it and personally killed 5 Jerries with it or something I wouldn't pay that kind of money! An original uncut Ross bayonet in excellent condition with original scabbard MIGHT now fetch about 250-275 in the right setting on a good day, but usually are in the $175 range. This example is just a cut up bayonet--no button catch, no muzzle loop. Just a knife, nothing more. The scabbards look very new, too. I'd pay maybe 95 or so, if I was in a super good mood! Probably about $50 actually, and that as just a hunting knife. An original PAL cutlery would command more maybe, but I'm not sure of their current value either.

Ed

[browningautorifle]

. In about 1942, the Cdn gov't sent several thousand Ross bayonets to PAL cutlery to be converted into fighting knives.

I'd never heard that. Good info. They must have been the ones that had the accompanying scabbard that had been shortened.

[boltaction]

Yes, that's right. If the scabbard looks like it was professionally shortened, then it's likely a PAL conversion.

Ed

[browningautorifle]

Good info for the relic and curio dealers I know...

[oldpaul]

From pages 316-317 TRRS.
"Hunting knives were in short supply in the Second World War which resulted in the conversion of some Ross bayonets and scabbards for this purpose. in March and April of 1944, 2,209 bayonets and 1,963 Mk1 scabbards were declared surplus and sold to William Margolin, 5094 Victoria Avenue, Montreal. He paid twelve cents each for the former and three cents each for the latter. The bayonets and scabbards were shipped to Pal Cutlery Company, Holyoak Massachusetts, for altering.
The RCMP brought to the attention of the military that the mustering-out of service, or better, the Government Sales Mark, was not on all the bayonets and scabbards sold. The Canadian Sales Mark on released military equipment is two broad arrows point-to-point within the letter"C" and in this case stamped across the pommel and the ground off release button. This was done after the button was screwed down tight to render the bayonet catch unserviceable. The imprint was required to be clear, permanent, and not to obliterate the government markings on the metal or the leather.
On August 11, 1944, Lieutenant-Colonel B.M.Webb, acting for the Chairman of the A.S. & D.B., immediately rectified the ordinance officer's neglect. Retailers and purchasers, shared the responsibility and were subject to investigation by RCMP.
This point seemed to be of sufficient concern that a man from the Armourer Shop with dies was sent to the premises of K&G Distributors Limited , 754 Wellington Street West, Montreal, to supervise the making of the knives and scabbards. Two men spent about three weeks doing this, completing the work in the week of August 30, 1944.
The Wartime Prices and Trade Board (in notification5128 to Wholesalers) listed the "Hunting Knives with Leather Scabbard" for $3.75 each FOB Montreal, sales tax included.
The same notification stated that the price to retailers was to be $5.00 each FOB Montreal, tax included, and that the retail value was not to exceed $7.50 anywhere in Canada."
If I read this right, these were not "Fighting" knives, but Hunting knives meant to be sold to the general public. The caption on the bottom of the picture reads,"Plate 366A: Mk1 and MkII bayonets altered to hunting knives. Records found to date indicate only Mk1 bayonets were altered. The right knife(upper) was made from a Mk1 bayonet and the left knife (lower) was made from a MkII bayonet. Regards. Tom

[browningautorifle]

If I read this right, these were not "Fighting" knives, but Hunting knives meant to be sold to the general public.

That is the way I understood it many years ago. Fact is though, if you have a number of Ross bayonet examples, these fit in line with the rest as a variation.

[boltaction]

Your're right--good catch. I meant to say hunting knives, not fighting knives. I must have had fighting knives on the brain from reading the ad description.

As for an official variation of Ross bayonets, indeed they are. However, they do not command a price higher than the price usually paid for an original bayonet. As well, without knowing the dimensions of the one in the ad, it is hard to know if it is a PAL one or not, or just a home made job. I own a couple of the PAL ones, and they match the picture in the RRS quite well. In particular, they still retain portions of the catch, and this example has had the button and catch removed. In addition they were ground with more of a Bowie style point, which this one doesn't have. Regardless, it is not in its original scabbard (modified) which the PAL were. So, as it stands, it is just a cut-down Ross bayonet.

Ed

[browningautorifle]

it is hard to know if it is a PAL one or not

I take it then from what you know, they aren't marked (PAL) ?