Can someone please help with this WW1 sniper

[Roger Payne]

Sorry to be slow to chip in but I just drove back from the Somme 99th anniversary commemorations this evening. The thumb nails show the original rifle I rebuilt from a stripped receiver (EFD 1916 Mk3*) a couple of years ago. I submitted some photo's at the time, & they are a few pages in on the Restorer's Forum. She's complete now save for the modified rear hand guard.

ATB

P.S. Sorry the photo's are indifferent in quality, but they are all I had readily available.

[Surpmil]

I'd say he has a WWI Aldis sight with rings modified after WWI for fitting to a sporting rifle, which has then been grafted back onto an SMLE to impress the uninitiated. I have seen that rear ring with the bevel somewhere else. The scope is obviously much too far offset to be either practical or original.

[browningautorifle]

We've had those here on forum before and they look very little like his example...

[harlton]

Sorry when you say we've had these here on the forum before, what are you really referring too, an extreme example like this one, or just some generally cobbled together stuff. It's sole intention to fool, and that was never real at all.
I've read about various concocted mounts now, seem to be made out of British bases,adapted to German rings, I assume with windage adjustment in-tact and the rings to take the German scopes. Mention is really all I can find, no pictures anywhere, or not that I've found, thou these things don't seem to like to pose for the camera much.
Nearly everything I've found is a British made mount, especially modified for the German Scope size of the period.
Did they ever exist, or is this just urban/trench legend, other than the special custom made officers rifles, that they either brought with them, from before the war. Obtained during it, by various means, one being a very charitable lady it seems.

Regards Ian

[gsimmons]

Yes, they did exist. Ian Skennerton has pictures of each of the variations and write up of each. Look in his "The Lee Enfield" book. They were all to be broken up, that's why they are so rare.

[Patrick Chadwick]

"The scope is obviously much too far offset to be either practical or original."

Some collectors should get out more - like go to the range and try shooting with their "rarities". Then they might realize that what they have in their hands is a non-functional nonsense.

For shooting in the prone position, that setup would be an abomination. I would not risk one single shot with it, as the scope is likely to end up in the eye socket.

The only way one could use it safely would be to shoot in a sitting position, using the left eye for aiming. Hardly likely for a sniper, but plausible for a hunter sitting in a hide.

Even then, the scope is set alarmingly far back. Over the years I have seen several German hunters with the unofficial "badge" of a half-moon cut on the eyebrow, the typical result of having a scope set too far back, and putting the eye too close to the scope in an unconscious effort to get closer to the target.

A hunter in a hide would have the scope set up for the most favourable distance (say 100-150 yards), and the horizontal variation of the POI resulting from the offset would be about 1" over that range - seems acceptable. Useless for long ranges of course, but they would never be attempted.

In short, IMHO this is a rifle/scope combination that was cobbled together for a hunter who could not use his right eye.

[browningautorifle]

Sorry when you say we've had these here on the forum before, what are you really referring too

We've had the No1 Mk3 snipers... Here's one... Lithgow No1 MkIII* HT Sniper Rifle Survey

cobbled together for a hunter who could not use his right eye

I agree with Patrick here, we've seen examples of rifles and shotguns over the years that were made up for vets with parts missing...from the great war more than anything. Perhaps this was one.

[Roger Payne]

The Small Arms Committee decreed in the early 1920's that all SMLE snipers should be returned to Weedon in Northamptonshire where they were to be stripped down & all salvageable parts reused. Most scopes were sold off into the trade & some (mainly Aldis types) were retained against possible future need. The only genuine WW1 SMLE snipers that have survived are rifles which for whatever reason did not get sent back for stripping down. In the early 1990's Ryton Arms imported from Egypt 1200 SMLE's that had been in a warehouse for decades, & amongst them were two authentic Periscopic Prism Company rifles (no scopes, but mount bases present). One went to the Charnwod collection, & the other was retained by the then manager of Ryton Arms. Fortunately, after a couple of years I managed to persuade him that he didn't want it any longer.
The other rifle that I have, shown in the pictures earlier in the thread, is a complete rebuild of a SMLE/ with Holland & Holland mounts, but it is built on a genuine receiver that had had the mounts removed, & all original parts have been used in the rebuild. On a rifle so rare, I can live with that. I have other SMLE snipers, but they are WW2 Lithgows, & I have other WW1 snipers, but they are not SMLE's. Just two examples in forty years of actively seeking them out shows just how scarce they really are......

[harlton]

Hi Roger,
Thanks for explaining that. Sorry to be a pest, but it's frustrating, to keep reading about all these rifles, some 1000 in total roughly, from what I've gleaned. Then never be able to even see a photo of what they may have looked like.
I've been putting stuff aside for this for twenty years, plus I got very lucky recently, with a couple of rifles that really fit the bill not wanting to ruin some original piece.
It's always been kind of tribute/connection, to my close family members I never meet, that I know will remain for another generation. The fascination with sniper rifles, is just down too, enjoying shooting now for nearly 50yrs, and I just like to building my own stuff.
I want to be accurate as possible, or it looses it's meaning, if just sticking anything on a rifle, and I certainly don't want anything silly, I'm after as close a repop of the period, as I can build, at a price to enjoy.
I like the way the German mounts work, so easy and efficient, and I've had them in my hands. The closest British mount I've seen is the H&H mount you mention, I like that whole set up. I have a Gerard B3 scope, and a 4. Goerz which the books say usually went in the Evans type mounts. who built about 90 I believe, but they seem to have no windage, unless I'm missing something in the photo's. The book on Scopes and mounts, has no Text, but I also have Ian Skennerton's books.
Thanks again, this ruby slipper turned into just glitter quickly, I'll stop being a nuisance now, and machine up some H&H Type mounts, to fit one of my scopes.
Thanks to all, for your help, I'm never going to find out anything, in the middle of Canada. When you're finding it that hard in the middle of the battlefields, and I wanted to make sure, before I commit to drilling any holes in this lovely receiver. Looking forward to trying this offset scope, arrangement, must be a bit like Mum's Knitting, over one, up one, pearl one! excel spread sheet time.

Regards Ian

[bigduke6]

The scope I mentioned in post #6,