"Inland" Manufacturing M1 Carbines - 1st hand experience

[imarangemaster]

Kahr tommy's are "junk". They have serious bolt problems and **** poor customer service!

It would not surprise me me at all, as the carbines a cr@p. My only experience with the Auto Ordnance tommy gun was 1989, and I believe they were a different company then. It shot great (though it was heavy as sin), and even fed hollow points. But, as I say, that was then...not now.

I do love my Kahr 45ACP CW45. It eats everything, and uses 1911 mags. It has replaced my Glock 19 as my carry piece.

[Brian Dick]

Auto-Ordnance was owned by Numrich Arms/Gun Parts Corporation back then. Some of their guns had issues too but nothing that couldn't be remedied with a bit of time and effort. Paul Krogh of Delta K in Colorado was/is the best TSMG Armorer in the country AFAIC. He knows all the tricks to iron the bugs out of them, both FA and semi models.

[Sleeplessnashadow]

My FFL received the replacement carbine yesterday. I did the paperwork today and got a look at it but will not be able to pick it up until after Nov 19th due to the CA waiting period and an out of town trip.

The serial number on this one is 9001316. The significance this has is I was told this carbine incorporates all the changes they made. Anyone with a higher serial number should probably have these changes also. Would like to hear from you. Have heard from several others with earlier serial numbers that are having problems. Up to 12 carbines and owners now with a variety of issues the most common and one consistent is the right bolt lug.

In the short time I had I did notice several things different than the one I sent back. The finish on the outside of the stock and handguard is different. Inside looks like the darker finish consistent with the prior that the finish came off easily. Sling cut is angled forward more than any stock I've ever seen and very noticeable. Stock also has a couple obvious scratches that should not be there on a new carbine.

The receiver is not warped like the last one. It has the same casting imperfections on the inside where the bolt slides back and forth. The edges from these imperfections have been buffed down so they don't interfere with the bolt.

The bolt was machined from forged steel and round, as before. There are no RC hardness test marks on the bolt as some have had. The shape of the front of the right bolt lug is a bit different. It has the edge across the front of the lug at both the center and the top. Need more time with the carbine to comment further on the right lug. The finish of the bolt is worn off lengthwise where the ridges inside the receiver were on the prior carbine. Never seen this with a new bolt on a new carbine. The lack of material to cause the wear makes me think the bolt either came off a different carbine that had been used or was used to put the bolt through testing before putting it in this carbine.

The extractor still has no blue/parkerized finish, it's in the white.

Operating the slide with the carbine assembled there's some binding of the right bolt lug in the slide's cam. The recoil spring overcomes the resistance but there shouldn't be any resistance.

I'll reserve my opinions until I can get a closer examination, pictures and time on the range. The observations above related to appearance were a definite disappointment given the original cost, a 2 month wait for a replacement and having to pay the FFL/State fees once again.

Jim

[sieggie]

Sleeplessnashadow,

Have you had a chance to take the new rifle out to the range and verify if the new bolt was hardened correctly?

Dave

[Sleeplessnashadow]

Just got back home late Thursday, picked it up Friday. Range trip scheduled for Tuesday next week. I've had it all apart and cleaned it. I'm holding most comments until after I've had it out to the range then disassembled it and examined things again.

Would really like to communicate with owners who have a serial number higher than 9001316. Almost ready to finish a web page on Inland and their carbines.

Jim

[Sleeplessnashadow]

This is Inland Manufacturing s/n 9001316. I received it as a replacement from Inland, replacing s/n 900698. Finally got out to the range with it yesterday.

At first, approximately 1 in 5 shots the bolt failed to rotate and lock completely during firing with the carbine failing to fire. After the first 50 rounds or so this increased to 1 in every 2 rounds. When the bolt did lock and and the carbine was fired, about 1 in 4 the bolt failed to cock the hammer for the next shot.

Attachment 67741 (click on the pics for an enlargement)

Checking the headspace with Clymer gauges, it wouldn't close on a No Go, but it failed to close on the Go gauge. Spring tension returning the bolt to the closed position during firing would sometimes force the bolt closed but at 1 in 2 firing was stopped and the headspace checked.

Attachment 67742

I replaced the Inland bolt with a GI bolt made by Inland during WWII. It headspaced correctly. During reassembly, fitting the right bolt lug into the cam cut in the slide was difficult. Cycling the action for firing the cam cut in the slide would not allow the GI bolt to rotate and lock into the closed position. This could be overcome with physical force but on the next cartridge the spring could not force the bolt into the closed position.

The GI bolt was removed and replaced with the newly manufactured Inland bolt. Surfaces of the bolt, slide, receiver and barrel that come in contact with one another were treated with Breakfree in an attempt to see if lubrication would help.

Firing the carbine, the same problem with the bolt failing to close and lock was encountered about 1 in 3. In addition, the bolt and slide now failed to move when the cartridge was fired.

The carbine was disassembled again and it was discovered the gas piston nut had rotated to the point it allowed the gas out of the gas chamber without enough pressure left to allow the piston to operate the action. Had firing been continued the gas piston nut would likely have unseated completely. Had this happened there would have been noting to restrain the piston from becoming the bullet.

Before going to the range I had visually inspected and cleaned the carbine. I had noted the gas piston nut had been staked in place.

Re-tightening the gas piston nut to very snug I found it rotated past the stake marks in the gas piston housing.

Attachment 67743

While the nut may not have been tightened fully before being staked, I do not possess the skill to check the gas piston housing dimensions or size of the gas hole. At this point I didn't assume. After I returned home I submitted a return request. I received a prompt reply that an RMA and shipping label for return would be forthcoming. As of the time I authored this post it hasn't been received but I expect it will come tomorrow.

An insufficient number of rounds could be fired for a break in period and to evaluate the right bolt lug to note improvements over the damage to the bolt in the first carbine.

Ammo used was factory new Aguila round nose and Lake City Arsenal ammo from the 70's in like new condition purchased from CMP.

Jim

[imntxs554]

Grant it back it the 40's the Cost was 40 to 65 dollars to make a fine USGI Carbine. How much in Today's money would it be to manufacture a Quality USGI M1 Carbine for the Commercial Market and get it right ? I'm sure there would be a Profit Made. Some companies are manufacturing and selling some great quality Carbines more advanced than the USGI M1 Carbine for about 1000.00 and up. I would think with today's technology the cost would be a fraction of that to make a USGI Quality M1 Carbine right the first time.

[Seaspriter]

Range Report

After reading the ORDEAL you have experienced, I've concluded the REAL DEAL is the best route. Either buy a Real USGI M1 Carbine for under $1000 and have it brought up to specs or go to Fulton, James River, or Orion7 and get a 100% reconditioned USGI spec gun -- at least these will not suffer the chance of failure and the depreciation of a new M1 from virtually any modern maker. There is just too much risk going any other route from what I can see, and the reconditioned M1s are cost competitive. Jim, thanks for keeping us appraised and for invoking the pain of the experience.

[CrossedCannons]

How much in Today's money would it be to manufacture a Quality USGI M1 Carbine for the Commercial Market and get it right ?

Even with all the specs for the finished product in front of you from 4 years of development by the original players, how are you going to actually MAKE it? It ain't as simple a just powering up your mill and hogging steel, or programming a computer to do it for you. There's a learning curve in your way. I feel the pain for both parties here

[Bubba-7]

Jim,
Thank-You for your time. I am a bit surprised by the head space problem and the new piston nut not having a recess for staking. The WWII nuts have a recess for staking for a reason.