Dad's Army P14s

[Flying10uk]

If some or all of the P14s were withdrawn from Home Guard use at some point during the war could/did they get supplied to resistance movements ion occupied Europe? If this was the case was this because of the calibre of the weapon (perhaps more readily available in Europe???) or was there a problem with supplying Lend Lease weapons to Resistance organisations which the U.K. government didn't actually own???

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[Beerhunter]

If some or all of the P14s were withdrawn from Home Guard use at some point during the war could/did they get supplied to resistance movements ion occupied Europe? If this was the case was this because of the calibre of the weapon (perhaps more readily available in Europe???) or was there a problem with supplying Lend Lease weapons to Resistance organisations which the U.K. government didn't actually own???

GRRRRRRRRR! For once and for all - those P14s were NOT Lend Lease. They were bought and paid for during the Great War - over two decades before the Lend Lease Act. We always owned the bloody things the US Government had NO involvement!

[Seaspriter]

For once and for all - those P14s were NOT Lend Lease. They were bought and paid for during the Great War - over two decades before the Lend Lease Act. We always owned the bloody things the US Government had NO involvement!

Beerhunter is absolutely correct -- Lend Lease was not invoked until March 1941, basically because Churchill and Roosevelt knew Britain would be quickly bankrupted if it had to fight the war against Hitler alone. Fortunately, those two leaders were very savvy, understanding the dynamics of the political arena. Roosevelt knew he couldn't engage the US in another war unless provoked, given the very vociferous opposition about another bloody war in Europe after we all fought "the war to end all wars." (Strange that when a German submarine sank the U.S.Reuben James in the North Atlantic on October 31st, 1941, we didn't declare war with Germany. And after Pearl Harbor, we didn't declare on Germany until after Hitler declared war on the U.S.)

Apparently over 100,000 M1917 Rifles were acquired from the US in 1940-41 for mobilization and training before Lend lease. Many went to Canada and stayed there. The President of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles Museum reported: "Veteran's Guard of Canada, a unit composed of WWI veterans too old for overseas service and instead used for guarding POW camps and military installations/factories, used these rifles. I know that the guards of a POW camp located in a park that I worked in during the summer used the M1917s. These are also sometimes found with a red band painted on the stock and forestock to show that they are .30 06 not .303." Apparently they are all marked on the butt stock with their C and broad arrow.

The British PURCHASING Commission, contracted to procure arms surplus M1917 rifles for the Home Guard in 1940, at least ONE year before the Lend Lease Act, and paid in pounds sterling.

Some more details from Rick the Librarian:

"C.S. Ferris, in his authoritative book on the M1917, United States Rifle Model of 1917 (p.146-147), stated that the initial list of material for the British, including 500,000 M1917s was developed as early as May, 1940, with the initial shipment arriving in July, 1940. A further group of 250,000 M1917s were authorized but there is no record if they were shipped or not. Another U.S. Army report has a further 270,000 M1917s shipped before February, 1941, but there is not positive proof. To be fair, an additional 119,000 M1917s were ordered and paid for at a later time under Lend Lease. This was several months before the Lend Lease Act was signed in March, 1941. The financing was handled by a "sleight of hand", whereas the U.S. Government sold the rifles to U.S. Steel Export Corporation. which would presumably sell the rifles to the British. This is also quoted in Ferris' book."

What is also seldom talked about is that there was "security" for these weapons. Both Britain and France shipped their gold reserves to the US and Canada just as the war started to prevent falling into German hands. After the war De Gaulle refused to allow any of the gold to be used to pay for the liberation of France. I'm not sure how the British gold was repatriated.

Many arms were sent to the USSR, including P-39 Aircobras, Rifles, and Studebaker trucks. I'll bet the investment saving the USSR was never paid for either, and came back as a Cold War acrimonious slap.