Mystery (to me) No 4 mk 2

[polaris]

Hi,
I have an Enfield No4Mk2, for which I would like to find some information.
When and where was it manufactured etc... ?

The only markings on the action are No4Mk2 and the serial number: N1329
(yes the ejector screw and the rear sight are missing, I removed them when I was looking for markings)

The action, bolt and magazine have matching numbers.

Here are pictures:






I see an "F 56" stamp on the barrel shank, does this mean the barrel was produced in 1956, and the rifle came from the very late Fazakerley production?

Thank you for your help.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

I hope someone will also chip in and agree that this was a last gasp of the industrial strike bound Fazakerley factory to become commercially viable by selling off new No4 Mk2 rifles to the commercial gun trade. The gun trade would allocate their own serial numbers. The F56 is the date of manufacture. The mark directly below the H20 mark, is the UK Military proof and below that is an arrow with the Fazakerley section examiners mark (05/FD?) - known at the factory as 'team leaders'.

[polaris]

Thank you very much, finally I got a lead.

[Seaspriter]

I hope someone will also chip in and agree that this was a last gasp of the industrial strike bound Fazakerley factory to become commercially viable by selling off new No4 Mk2 rifles to the commercial gun trade. The gun trade would allocate their own serial numbers.

This is probably as good an assumption as would be reasonable. The Mk2 serial numbers in 1949-54 began with PFXXXXX, then the 1954-56 models began with UF. Few were made in 56. So yours may be made up with the random parts that were left in the factory that weren't under contract. The serial number isn't common.

[jmoore]

Looks like a nicer variation of these No.4 Mk.2's :

[Peter Laidler]

I would very much doubt that that was a Fazakerley allocated and marked registered number JM. I know that their engraving marks were dire but stamping on the body sides was not allowed - except for the letter 'T' and that was only due to a bit of ambiguous wording.

You might also see another particularly identifiable Fazakerley feature on the lower photo. Note the SCREW, catch, magazine. On Fazakerley production, the screw head sits fully recessed into the lug whereas on other manufacturers products, the screw head isn't recessed but sits onto a narrower differently profiled lug. Not a lot of people know that!

There you go, another section examiners mark. This time 59-PL

[polaris]

Thank you for all the information.

Do you have any idea, how many of those rifles were produced during this period?
Does it mean this is a rare variant of a No4mk2?

[Frederick303]

As regards the second rifle with the 4/xxxx serial number

I have no idea if this is true but back in the late 1990s there were a few od variations of No4 MKII rifles in PA that all had a similar look:

1) The old markings scratched out, including the serial numbers.
2) the metal was bare or looked like it had been re-blued and then handled until the bluing was gone. These rifles did not seem to have the park/suncorite look
3) two serial number patterns: A) metal stock disc and the serial number on top of action body, 4 digit xxxx
B) serial number on butt and rear of action body, with either a 1/xxxx (if SMLE) or 4/xxxx (if No 4)
4) stamps on action (two I examined) were Faz 49

In any case a chap told me these were rifles supplied by SA to Rhodesia in the 1965 to 1970 time frame, the ones with the stock disc being police guns and the other ones being military or some sort of armed guards. I believe the guy who told me was a expatriate from one of these no longer existent nations.

Never seen that in print, but thought I would add that to the mix.

[jmoore]

As regards the second rifle with the 4/xxxx serial number

I have no idea if this is true but back in the late 1990s there were a few od variations of No4 MKII rifles in PA that all had a similar look:

1) The old markings scratched out, including the serial numbers.
2) the metal was bare or looked like it had been re-blued and then handled until the bluing was gone. These rifles did not seem to have the park/suncorite look
3) two serial number patterns: A) metal stock disc and the serial number on top of action body, 4 digit xxxx
B) serial number on butt and rear of action body, with either a 1/xxxx (if SMLE) or 4/xxxx (if No 4)
4) stamps on action (two I examined) were Faz 49

In any case a chap told me these were rifles supplied by SA to Rhodesia in the 1965 to 1970 time frame, the ones with the stock disc being police guns and the other ones being military or some sort of armed guards. I believe the guy who told me was a expatriate from one of these no longer existent nations.

Never seen that in print, but thought I would add that to the mix.

Best lead to date for identifying these "cosmetically challenged" rifles.


Per item "3)B)".

But no sign of old markings removed on these two rifles as per item "1)".

[Seaspriter]

Do you have any idea, how many of those rifles were produced during this period?
Does it mean this is a rare variant of a No4mk2?

I'd guess that these were rifles made of "scraps and spares" that were left at the end of production at Fazakerley in '56. You can see it has a modified fore-end using a Mk1 fore-end adapted with a filler plug to a Mk2 trigger. If there are any production records on this "tail end of production" they aren't well recorded, although someone might have some recollection or records.

As for rarity, yes you have a "rare" version. Whether it is "valuable" is a totally different matter. For example, when Long Branch ceased production in 1950, they continued to produce Dominion of Canada Rifle Association versions from scraps and spares and limited production into the 1950s which were target rifles, and have thus have value today. Unless there is something unique and valued about your rare version, there may not be a market for your unusual gun. If there was a verifiable "provenance" or "back story," then it might have some value. Otherwise, don't think you just won the lottery. Suggest you hold on to the rifle until someone emerges from the nooks and crannies of Lee Enfield history that can give credence to your find, then it might accumulate additional value.