Purpose of mid-length sling swivel on No. 4T and Enfield target rifles?

[Steve762]

Would some of our UK and Common Wealth target shooters answer the following question from this "Yank". What is the purpose of the sling swivel that is mounted in front of the magazine on the No. 4T and other Enfield Target Rifles? What type of sling or shooting position would use such a sling mounting point? All I can think of is some type of hasty sling that would put pressure on the fore stock only. Pics would be helpful since all pics I have seen never show this swivel being used. ie the No. 4T pic in our web site header. Thx. Steve

Information

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[Parashooter]

Here's the basic idea -



I've since learned it's more elegant to install the sling with a half-twist already in it, avoiding the extraneous twist seen here below magazine. Either way, it's a very good shooting sling arrangement - steady as the U.S. loop sling and nearly quick as the hasty.

[Mk VII]

[harry mac]

As far as I can see it's a "cheat" to get round rules in certain competitions that used to demand a two point sling. The rule was originally written to mean that an "as issued" sling configuration was to be used, but enterprising shooters developed this swivel so that both ends of the sling were on the for-end rather than butt and fore-end. This complied with the letter of the rule, if not the spirit.

[Bindi2]

It was a way to combat the removal of the lugs that were for the Mounted or light horseman that had a normal loop fitted in the lugs. Not a cheat method at all but a refined swivel for lug less rifles. I have also have swivel loops for the lugs.

[Roger Payne]

To answers Steve762's point about the sling not generally being used with the triangular swivel in combat & other photo's, I think this is probably because the swivel was only approved late on in the war (some time in mid to late 1944 IIRC - no doubt someone will quote us the precise date), & so most wartime use of the 4T would have been without this swivel, although it was approved to be retro fitted to all rifles following its introduction.

ATB

[Peter Laidler]

The hat in Mk7's photos (thread 4) brought a smile to my face as we wore these jungle green 'jungle hats' for most of the time 'in camp', ranges/military training and on ops in Malaya and SVn when helmets weren't worn. Easily washed and quickly dried (as was most of our kit) and easily replaced as and when. Good, comfortable, versatile and well thought out bits of kit - as was most of the stuff there. The only drawback was the helicopter downdraught and monsoon gales would send them scattering everywhere so we put a length of nylon cord through the rim and under our chin. That way, they blew off and the nylon cord strangled us!!!!! We thought that the Navy pilots turned on the rotor down-draught just to see the hats being blown everywhere. Nope..... we never saw too many RAF/RAAF pilots when the monsoons turned up

[Frederick303]

I think the origin of this sling goes back to the early MLE rifles, that had allowance for a sling swivel to be mounted just in front of the magazine. That was for mounted rifleman and I supposed dates to around the Boer war. This was followed over to the SMLE, though there was less of a need for it. In any case the shooting guides I have from the WWI era move the sling swivel from the buttstock to in front of the magazine for completive shooting.

Late in WWI the sling swivel mount in front of the magazine was dropped and replaced with a wire loop for securing a action cover. Post WWI these rifles would not allow the use of the old sling swivel being mounted to the trigger guard and in the immediate post war period clips that allowed the sling to be mounted to the wire lop were used (originally made for martini rifles), though they did not work that well, bending out of shape with a tight sling. The only solution was to replace the trigger guard on a rifle that did not have the sling swivel mount.

In any case a swivel mount that replaced the front trigger guard screw appears in the Parker hale catalog in April of 1928 and thereafter. It is not in my January 1928 export catalog, nor in the January 1924 catalog. The chief difference between the 1928 version and the version adopted for the No4 was the length of the shaft, as on the 1928 version it had to allow for being mounted to triggerguards that had the sling swivel mount, and had to clear those mounts. The new swivel was an improvement, as it allowed for a more natural lay of the sling. compared to the rigid mount when the rear swivel was used.

The chief advantage I have found with the UK method of sling mounting is when in a long prone string it is not as tiring as the US single point loop sling, between shots there is virtually no pressure on the left support arm. In the UK system of slow fire shooting where there are three shooters to a point and a 15 shot sting could go for 33 minutes it is something to consider. The chief disadvantage is that the UK sling setup is not as failsafe as the US loop sling and more likely to slip in a rapid string. If you use a sling hook on your coat that helps, as well as the overlap the sling (another method of setting up the sling).

[RobD]

Frederick303 "I think the origin of this sling goes back to the early MLE rifles "
The position of the swivels goes back to the Martini Henry before the MLM, and the Snider before that, and the Enfield, and so ad infinitum. But in yon days the sling was for carrying only, wasn't it? The use of the sling, as shown by Parashooter and Mk VII to steady the rifle, is a more recent development, I understand - when does that date from, I wonder?

[Bindi2]

My Grandfather was a Martini man( Bedfordshire Yeoman ) he showed me how to use them and the sling. They wrapped the sling around the forearm and held rounds between the fingers. He and my father ( SMLE man) had many discussions about which was the better rifle not to mention LMGs. They both agreed on the Vickers Dad got him on Subs.