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Thread: The differences between British and Australian L1A1, SLRs.

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    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
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    The differences between British and Australian L1A1, SLRs.

    The question recently arose as to whether or not there are any differences between the Australianicon and Britishicon versions of the L1A1 SLR, even minor detail differences. I don,t know the answer to this and I've had a look through old threads which seem to suggest that there may be slight differences in the style of cut-outs in the flash eliminator and perhaps very slight differences to the receiver? However I am still not really sure on the answer to this and it was suggested to me recently that the 2 versions were identical in every respect even down to the smallest of detail. I realise that Australia had a full auto version of the FAL rifle but that is something I am not concerned with regarding this question.

    I would be interested to hear any thoughts on this matter from other members, please, and thanks for any information.
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    There are hundreds (?) of subtle differences. Get ready for another 5 pages of examples..................

    I'll start. The UKicon change levers are retained internally with a small hard-to-get-out split pin while Aust ones don't have the hole. Anyone else.

    It is worth remembering that in places like Malaya during the 60's, with pooled/pro-rata Ordnance stores Australianicon, UK/Gurkha, NZ and Malayan attached units could have BSA/Enfield and Lithgow rifles. So it was important that while spare parts might be slightly different, they fully interchanged and functioned properly. I can only think of one example where this caused a real problem

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    All three were completely interchangeable...A/B/C. That was the order originally. Machining minor difference doesn't matter. Also, we were trained to strip the major parts out of the trigger mech as we discussed a couple years ago. No cotter pin for us either. We left the sear in the trigger. Would have been nice to just slosh it out with varsol though...and leave it assembled.
    Regards, Jim

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    As Jim and Peter have said, hundreds of small differences between the three variants, though the Lithgow and Enfield /BSA product have more in common than the C1

    Australianicon differences, thicker at the wrist Coachwood butt, slightly different profile Coachwood hand guards, (machining cuts to the receiver more closely follows the parent Fal design in profile), chromed chamber (and barrel in later rifles), basically the same but different for virtually all components, with different manufacturing and machining techniques used as suited the Lithgow factory.

    As Jim and Peter also say, full interchangeability for all components no matter if they are BSA, Enfield, Lithgow or Canadianicon Arsenals manufactured.

    The C1 was in effect the parent rifle of the three I believe.

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    Legacy Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
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    Interchangeability was built into the specification agreed upon by the "Rifle Steering Committee" during the adoption of the L1A1 / C1. Essentially, it meant "modules" were interchangeable pretty much at any level, and gauging was, for all practical purposes, the same. Even the threads used on "inch" pattern rifles are the "nearest equivalent" to the original metric ones. For example, whilst you can swap the rear-sight assemblies, the "windage" adjustment screws are "almost" the same, but will not "go" completely. Metric vs BA. BA of course, being itself derived from the Swissicon, METRIC, Thury clock-makers thread.

    Here in Oz, we had a "fire-support / automatic rifle variant, the L2A1, essentially the same as the Canadianicon C2.

    Woodwork variations occurred because different "timber" behaves differently under extremes of heat, cold and "stress". However, swapping between Imperial "patterns" was straightforward, as long as you had the correct screws, etc. for each pattern.

    Brit. black plastic furniture will fit straight onto an Oz L1A1 and was issued in limited quantities during the "dying days" of the L1A1 in Oz service. Probably drop straight onto a C1

    The interesting thing is that you can (usually) drop a complete L1A1 "upper" onto an FAL lower / TMH and vice-versa, and it will work. A LOT of effort seems to have gone into maintaining the mechanical dimensions of the rifle in its development. Which, of course, would make (rare) sense.

    Then there are the Indian ones..........

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    And the biggest/ most noticeable difference of course. Was the Serial Number!

    On the Aus Variants, it is on the total opposite side to a UKicon Spec Rifle. & noticeably MUCH Longer!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz View Post
    Interchangeability was built into the specification agreed upon by the "Rifle Steering Committee" during the adoption of the L1A1 / C1. Essentially, it meant "modules" were interchangeable pretty much at any level, and gauging was, for all practical purposes, the same. Even the threads used on "inch" pattern rifles are the "nearest equivalent" to the original metric ones. For example, whilst you can swap the rear-sight assemblies, the "windage" adjustment screws are "almost" the same, but will not "go" completely. Metric vs BA. BA of course, being itself derived from the Swissicon, METRIC, Thury clock-makers thread.

    Here in Oz, we had a "fire-support / automatic rifle variant, the L2A1, essentially the same as the Canadianicon C2.

    Woodwork variations occurred because different "timber" behaves differently under extremes of heat, cold and "stress". However, swapping between Imperial "patterns" was straightforward, as long as you had the correct screws, etc. for each pattern.

    Brit. black plastic furniture will fit straight onto an Oz L1A1 and was issued in limited quantities during the "dying days" of the L1A1 in Oz service. Probably drop straight onto a C1

    The interesting thing is that you can (usually) drop a complete L1A1 "upper" onto an FAL lower / TMH and vice-versa, and it will work. A LOT of effort seems to have gone into maintaining the mechanical dimensions of the rifle in its development. Which, of course, would make (rare) sense.

    Then there are the Indian ones..........
    There's always something new to learn, I didn't know the Australianicon's also used Brit plastics at the end Bruce?

    New Zealand purchased their 15,000 rifles from Lithgow, but replacement parts from the UK, plastic furniture, cocking Handles etc, but also developed their own plastics, including the rare 8 slot forend. KtK of this parish will no doubt be along with more info at some point.

    The whole project was a wonderful example of Commonwealth cooperation.

    Regarding fal/inch pattern interchangeably, bolt an carrier, top cover and complete TMH will all fit without issue.

    I believe the TMH working parts of either will also swap between TMH's, provided the parts are all swapped and not mixed.

    Then there's the Indian crossbreed 1A1...
    Well, a blend of metric and inch and made without Fn's permission (or royalty payments).. they weren't best pleased!
    It took a payment, plus Indian Fn, Britishicon and Australian direct purchases to soothe Fn's anger..

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Laidlericon View Post
    I can only think of one example where this caused a real problem
    Do tell Peter, always interested in L1 info....

    ---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by tankhunter View Post
    And the biggest/ most noticeable difference of course. Was the Serial Number!

    On the Aus Variants, it is on the total opposite side to a UKicon Spec Rifle. & noticeably MUCH Longer!
    morning Mike,

    Lithgowicon serial numbers were on the left for the first year of production and transferred to the right in 1960 I think. Never seen a 59 Lithgow.

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    I'm quite surprised that NZ purchased their spare parts from the UKicon because it was MUCH cheaper for Nations to buy Australianicon/Lithgow rifles than to buy them from the UK. So I assume that the same might apply to spares and magazines. We had L1A1's and L2's at Papakura and in Ordnance at Ngaruawahia and Sylvia Park(?) and the spares for the L2's were always 'dues-out' (awaiting delivery!)
    Does Papakura and Sylvia Park near Auckland still exist?

    The reason why the UK/Aust/Can L1's were so similar and in many cases, (BinO thread 5 and MRC, thread 7 allude) interchangeable (as assemblies) is because the extremely tight licensing agreement that tied up the manufacturing licence. The same applied to the home manufacturing licence for the GPMG and the Bren. Just the slightest deviation would cost thousands of £££'s. Even when they then adopted some of the UK modifications for their own production, such as the 50 round drum fitting, top mounted butt sling, strengthened bipod struts, shorter gas cylinder/longer carrying handle nut, it was like pulling teeth to to get subsequent 'deviation royalties (or payments)' stopped. And there was no refund for those already manufactured and paid for. My old boss Major Fxxxxx and his colleague Maj Jack Cxxxxxxxxxl and could have written a book about the tough negotiations with FN! He described it as '.......no sitting down over a cup of coffee with them...........!'

    The small niggling thing that affected us in Australia at the time was the fact that Australian (and Canadianicon ?) bayonets had a radial recess down the blade while the UK bayonets (that were developed from the No5's) had a squared-off recess. That meant that the matching square retainer part of the UK mouthpiece spring wouldn't seat into the rounded recess of the Aust bayonets when you pushed the blade into the scabbard. Just another niggling point was that when we indented for a load of new Aust springs to solve the problem........... It didn't!

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Afternoon Peter,

    I have always found it curios regarding the NZ purchase of UK spares, especially given the very close military cooperation between NZ and Australiaicon and the obvious geographic advantage of buying Lithgow! Kevin will no doubt shed some light on this when he come along, but for what ever reason, they bought UK plastics and developed and issued their own in very small quantity's.

    A typical NZ mod to the plastic butt is a simple wire sprung loop replacing the Britishicon sling attachment. Enfield, Faz and BSA cocking handles are commonly observed on well used NZ Lithgows.

    I have also seen one example with a late 1986 manufacture Parker Hale barrel and gas block assembly, though this might possibly have been a post service civvy replacement for the original, as Kevin said he hadn't seen any others so re-fitted and that example had been Birmingham proofed.

    That's very interesting regarding the bayonets, I assume they could be produced royalty free from Fn as they were a totally separate commonwealth design?

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