P14 Serial Number and date of manufacture determination

[treboryelmul]

Salutations,

This is my first post.

I have acquired a Remington P14. Serial number is 29731. I have spent the past hour attempting to find a serial number list for this type of rifle. I thought it would be no problem as it has been easy to find this information for my other Enfields (SMLEs, No4s) previously.

I have perused this form and note that some indicate that a .625 bolt lug on extractor side indicates a Mk1. However, the bold also has a * on it which contraindicates the information I have been lucky enough to "find" as of this writing.

If someone can steer me to a serial number list for this rifle it would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Rob

Information

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[Gil Boyd]

Rob,
Welcome aboard mate. I am sure someone blessed with that knowledge will be along shortly.

[oldfoneguy]

Welcome! I have a Remington P14 with a 93000 serial number and was curious about the same thing so I did some in depth searching and found this excellent article on the Remington Society website called the story of Eddystone.

The Story of Eddystone Remington Society of America

Here is a brief summary of the information your looking for. On March 25, 1916, work began in Ilion on the .303 Pattern 1914 Mk I rifles for England. An average rate of production of 1,000 rifles per day was eventually achieved, with the greatest rate of production of 2,000 rifles in one day on March 10, 1917.

Full production probably took weeks to be achieved and varied up and down until then but if you take a baseline figure of 1,000 rifles a day and do some simple math from the date production started you can probably get to within a couple of weeks to a month of the day your rifle was made. A guesstamate should put your rifle being made on or around April 25 1916. The same formula has my rifle made on or about June 28 1916.

BTW my rifle was a Weedon refurb with a full compliment of "daisy" stamps and a force matched bolt. An easy way to tell if yours has had it done is to pull out the bolt and check for a relief cut on the face of the barrel like the attached picture of mine. This was done to accommodate the larger bolt lug. - Bill

[treboryelmul]

Thanks much Bill!

I have the good fortune that the bolt and receiver SN match. Based upon your input, this one did not see Weedon refurb and the bolt face is not relieved as you pictured.

I will definitely be reading "The Story of Eddystone Remington..." as you so graciously referred to.

I'm very thankful for your input.

Best,

Rob

[harry mac]

Your serial number and the lack of Mk1* build standard would reinforce what I read some years ago (IIRC, In Skennerton's The U.S. Enfield) that production switched to Mk1* standard at some time around serial number 100000 for all three factories.
My own P14 is a Remington in the 69000 range and is a Mk1.

[oldfoneguy]

According to the article above it was December 1916 that the new bolt with the longer lug was incorporated designated as the MkI*. As the different manufacturers produced rifles at different rates its impossible to pick a blanket serial number for the change. At 1k rifles a day from March 25 1916 Remington would have easily been in the 200k serial number range by December 1916 when the change came about. Winchester probably a little lower Eddystone much higher. It was 1938-1939 that the earlier rifles still in stores underwent the Weedon referb incorporating the larger bolt lug. So your rifles had to be somewhere else by the outbreak of WWII. Perhaps they were in private hands seeing as the P14 had been relegated to a rear echelon and home guard weapon from the very beginning. Something you both would need to look for on your rifles is the double broad arrow at the top of the receiver ring indicating the rifle was sold out of service.
Without it it's obvious these were not in the hands of the British government when they were disposed of. - Bill

[treboryelmul]

Without it it's obvious these were not in the hands of the British government when they were disposed of. - Bill

Well, I just checked and the double broad arrow does not exist on the receiver ring. Makes one wonder where this rifle went / was as the serial number is relatively low and the date of manufacture fairly early in the cycle.

However, thats one of the many things that make collecting Enfields so damn interesting to me.

Thanks very much Bill!

I appreciate the input as always,

Rob

[harry mac]

According to the article above it was December 1916 that the new bolt with the longer lug was incorporated designated as the MkI*. As the different manufacturers produced rifles at different rates its impossible to pick a blanket serial number for the change. At 1k rifles a day from March 25 1916 Remington would have easily been in the 200k serial number range by December 1916 when the change came about. Winchester probably a little lower Eddystone much higher. It was 1938-1939 that the earlier rifles still in stores underwent the Weedon referb incorporating the larger bolt lug. So your rifles had to be somewhere else by the outbreak of WWII. Perhaps they were in private hands seeing as the P14 had been relegated to a rear echelon and home guard weapon from the very beginning. Something you both would need to look for on your rifles is the double broad arrow at the top of the receiver ring indicating the rifle was sold out of service.
Without it it's obvious these were not in the hands of the British government when they were disposed of. - Bill

Hi Bill,we lock horns again on this, lol. The * modification was incorporated into the manufacturing process as early as June 1916, December was when it was announced in "The List Of Changes". Just like publications today, The LoC would only have been up-dated once or maybe twice a year, so a "change" could well have been implemented already by the time the list had been updated. The 100,000 figure is only approximate, but over time, and seeing pictures of different people's rifles posted on here, Gun Boards Forums and on Face Book groups, it does seem to be (at least) approximately correct. Skennerton notes that the Mk1* modification was instituted by Winchester later than the other manufacturers, presumably because they were trying to minimise their unit manufacturing price; but they did eventually incorporate it.

[oldfoneguy]

I'm basing this statement on the information written in the Remington Society of America article link I've listed in post #3 above. This is information gathered from numerous sources including Skinnerton over a period of time. Just look at the sources referenced at the end of the article. No reason to lock horns over this, I'm just repeating what was written. I don't doubt Skinnerton but there are many other sources of information listed there, more than just him. The serial numbers are just my guesstimate based on Remington and Eddystones listed production figures by the acceptance date of the change in December 1916. - Bill

[CINDERS]

oldfoneguy I like you naming of Skinnerton I do scat loads of typo's all the time but yours had me chuckling
Ian Skennerton would probably get a laugh out of it as well unless there is really a Skinnerton who writes up the History of the Lee Enfields and scads of other weapons over the years! Cheers