HELP! What caliber is a Gecado Sul bolt action rifle?

[Singer B]

I have been working on my friend's small rimfire rifle. It is marked "Gecado Suhl" on the barrel with the number "39" marked on the bolt and barrel. The barrel has a small chamber that will not accept a .22 caliber round. The barrel opens up widely after several inches into a diameter of approximately
.30 caliber. it is a single shot. Can anyone please advise what the caliber would be and why the barrel is sized so strangely? Thanks!

Information

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[Sunray]

"...barrel opens up widely after several inches..." That means the barrel is no good. Barrels should not get larger.
"...will not accept a .22 caliber round..." Which one? It could be a short, long or long rifle.
Anyway, "GECADO" was the trade name of the company G.C.Dornheim A.G in Suhl/Germany. They were an importer. There were .22 rifles and sporter Mausers and some hand guns.

[Singer B]

"...barrel opens up widely after several inches..." That means the barrel is no good. Barrels should not get larger.
"...will not accept a .22 caliber round..." Which one? It could be a short, long or long rifle.
Anyway, "GECADO" was the trade name of the company G.C.Dornheim A.G in Suhl/Germany. They were an importer. There were .22 rifles and sporter Mausers and some hand guns.

The barrel is very strange. The chamber will not accept a standard .22 LR round. The last half of the barrel is more like a hollow shroud that the chamber/true barrel is inserted into. It is not shot out, but rather, that is how it is designed. Maybe it is designed to shoot a larger projectile from the larger section using a blank in the smaller chamber?

[old rockape]

You probably have a training or a Zimmer rifle. Both are for indoor use. It will be chambered for the 6mm Flobert, which uses the priming charge to drive a small projectile. If the barrel is more than 8" the projectile will slow down on the bore.
It might chamber .22 short. However, beware the .22 short may be too powerful and result case failure the extractor being blown out sideways.
6mm Flobert is still available in Europe from RWS.

Attachment 102935

[Singer B]

You probably have a training or a Zimmer rifle. Both are for indoor use. It will be chambered for the 6mm Flobert, which uses the priming charge to drive a small projectile. If the barrel is more than 8" the projectile will slow down on the bore.
It might chamber .22 short. However, beware the .22 short may be too powerful and result case failure the extractor being blown out sideways.
6mm Flobert is still available in Europe from RWS.

Attachment 102935

Thank you, we will look into that!

[Patrick Chadwick]

I have been working on my friend's small rimfire rifle. It is marked "Gecado Suhl" on the barrel with the number "39" marked on the bolt and barrel. The barrel has a small chamber that will not accept a .22 caliber round. The barrel opens up widely after several inches into a diameter of approximately
.30 caliber. it is a single shot. Can anyone please advise what the caliber would be and why the barrel is sized so strangely? Thanks!

Well I and others could advise you much more precisely if you would take the trouble to post a photo or two and to measure - even roughly - the length of the narrow section. The reason why will soon become apparent.

As it is, I can only switch my crystal ball to maximum sensitivity and make a couple of deductions and suggestions from the somewhat fuzzy picture.

Firstly, what you are looking at is not actually the ballistically effective barrel. It is just a tube to give the external impression of a barrel and mount the sights. The actual barrel is the narrow bit that has been puzzling you.

It seems to be some kind of "Zimmergewehr" - i.e. indoor rifle. These were basically made in 3 different styles of construction:

1) Gallery rifles for non-military indoor use, funfairs and the like. Often with a very steep buttstock for shooting in the standing position.

2) Trainers made ex-factory to be handled and aimed like a military rifle, with a smallbore insert at the rear end, where the cartridge would otherwise have been inserted. In other words, a sub-caliber construction.

3) One-time full-bore rifles, converted by chambering an rifled insert that looks like the original cartridge case, but has a very short rifled section. The tiddly little cartridge is inserted where the primer would be on a normal case. It would be a Flobert-type cartridge - just primer and projectile, no powder charge. These were popular for home-training with a full-bore rifle in the days when you could still legally pop off a few small-bore shots at a private club or in your cellar. Not today, since (at least over here in Mauserland) they are just as strongly regulated as a full-bore rifle.

So now it is clear why one needs a couple of photos, and why one need to know the length of the narrow section - the actual barrel!

Just push in a length of copper wire that has the last couple of mm sufficiently bent to snag on the end of the narrow section, without jamming. Do NOT use steel wire, as the rifling is very fine and easily damaged by something like piano wire! A wire from a scrap piece of solid-cored electrical cable is ideal. With this, you can estimate the length of the small-bore barrel section. If it is much more that about 2" then it is probably fitted as a permanent insert, maybe set up so that it can be removed by unscrewing a threaded ring.

If it is around 2" - i.e. the length of a full-bore cartridge case - then it is a rifled case and is not intended to be permanent. However, if the thing has been left in the full-bore chamber for years, it may be corroded into place and give the impression of being a permanent insert!

The small-bore cartridge used with these types of rifle was thus a tiny Flobert-style device, of which there were several options. As you write that it is a rimfire rifle and that 6mm does not fit, then I guess it is probably a 4mm Flobert. Whether it is 1) 2) or 3) of the options mentioned above, can best be shown by PHOTOS !!!

Photos please!

[Singer B]

Well I and others could advise you much more precisely if you would take the trouble to post a photo or two and to measure - even roughly - the length of the narrow section. The reason why will soon become apparent.

As it is, I can only switch my crystal ball to maximum sensitivity and make a couple of deductions and suggestions from the somewhat fuzzy picture.

Firstly, what you are looking at is not actually the ballistically effective barrel. It is just a tube to give the external impression of a barrel and mount the sights. The actual barrel is the narrow bit that has been puzzling you.

It seems to be some kind of "Zimmergewehr" - i.e. indoor rifle. These were basically made in 3 different styles of construction:

1) Gallery rifles for non-military indoor use, funfairs and the like. Often with a very steep buttstock for shooting in the standing position.

2) Trainers made ex-factory to be handled and aimed like a military rifle, with a smallbore insert at the rear end, where the cartridge would otherwise have been inserted. In other words, a sub-caliber construction.

3) One-time full-bore rifles, converted by chambering an rifled insert that looks like the original cartridge case, but has a very short rifled section. The tiddly little cartridge is inserted where the primer would be on a normal case. It would be a Flobert-type cartridge - just primer and projectile, no powder charge. These were popular for home-training with a full-bore rifle in the days when you could still legally pop off a few small-bore shots at a private club or in your cellar. Not today, since (at least over here in Mauserland) they are just as strongly regulated as a full-bore rifle.

So now it is clear why one needs a couple of photos, and why one need to know the length of the narrow section - the actual barrel!

Just push in a length of copper wire that has the last couple of mm sufficiently bent to snag on the end of the narrow section, without jamming. Do NOT use steel wire, as the rifling is very fine and easily damaged by something like piano wire! A wire from a scrap piece of solid-cored electrical cable is ideal. With this, you can estimate the length of the small-bore barrel section. If it is much more that about 2" then it is probably fitted as a permanent insert, maybe set up so that it can be removed by unscrewing a threaded ring.

If it is around 2" - i.e. the length of a full-bore cartridge case - then it is a rifled case and is not intended to be permanent. However, if the thing has been left in the full-bore chamber for years, it may be corroded into place and give the impression of being a permanent insert!

The small-bore cartridge used with these types of rifle was thus a tiny Flobert-style device, of which there were several options. As you write that it is a rimfire rifle and that 6mm does not fit, then I guess it is probably a 4mm Flobert. Whether it is 1) 2) or 3) of the options mentioned above, can best be shown by PHOTOS !!!

Photos please!

I will take the photos tonight when I get home from work and post them tomorrow. I really appreciate your help!

[Singer B]

Hi Patrick,

Here are the photos you asked for. The barrel's overall length is 19.5 inches. I inserted a wood dowel into the muzzle end and measure it when it hit the insert in the barrel. The measurement was 13 inches indicating the insert is approximately 6.5 inches in length. Based upon the photos, it appears the insert is not seated properly based upon the off set of the chamber face. Thanks for the help!

[rcathey]

I’d betchya this was a 9mm shotgun at one point in time. Sleeved to some sort of 22 (or metric equivalent).