Z SERIES 03A4

[m1903rifle]

That's exactly my point. Regardless of the font sizes, the 1903A4 was a separate and unique rifle, including the way the serial numbers were positioned and sized on the receiver due to provisions for mounting a scope. Have seen numerous A3 "clones" that were changed to A4 sniper configurations and the conversions are obvious. However, the rifles submitted by "mark1" are the first time I've seen a 1903a3 (actually, 2 of them!), being submitted as a "genuine Z prefix A4" with an obvious fake "Z" stamping on the receivers!!! (And what's worse, a previous post by "champ0608" states that this same individual is now trying to sell them on Gunbroker!)

Buyer beware! --728shooter

728shooter,
You are missing the fact that Mark1 never called his rifles M1903-A4s. He plainly stated that they were M1903-A3s.

[Promo]

Have seen numerous A3 "clones" that were changed to A4 sniper configurations and the conversions are obvious. However, the rifles submitted by "mark1" are the first time I've seen a 1903a3 (actually, 2 of them!), being submitted as a "genuine Z prefix A4" with an obvious fake "Z" stamping on the receivers!!! (And what's worse, a previous post by "champ0608" states that this same individual is now trying to sell them on Gunbroker!)

I don't know what you were reading, but mark1 stated that Z prefixes were added to 03A3 rifles as well and that he has two of them. When I asked him for pictures of his 03A3 rifles with Z prefix he posted them in here. Neither he nor anyone else ever said the rifles of mark1 are 03A4 and therefore sniper rifles.

Additionally you misunderstood champ0608 - he did not mean that mark1 was selling FOUR 03A4 sniper rifles on gunbroker, but he was referring to the seller of the rifle the original poster was questioning. Re-read it, it will then become clear to you.

[728shooter]

[QUOTE=Promo;494075]I don't know what you were reading, but mark1 stated that Z prefixes were added to 03A3 rifles as well and that he has two of them. When I asked him for pictures of his 03A3 rifles with Z prefix he posted them in here. Neither he nor anyone else ever said the rifles of mark1 are 03A4 and therefore sniper rifles.

Its well known by most 1903A3 fans that Remington marked ALL their 1903A3 receivers with the same identification, hence, even designated 1903A4 rifles were stamped "MODEL 1903A3". The only obvious differentiation between the two stampings being that the stamping on the A4 was re-positioned to the sides of the receiver due to mounting of the scope base. That being said, ALL Remington rifles of this design are marked MODEL 1903A3.

The A4's were assigned separate serial number blocks from A3's and when it was discovered that certain numbers were found to have been duplicated on both A3' and A4's , Remington decided to modify the affected s/n's on the A4's buy adding a prefix to the existing serial number. Starting at s/n 4,000,001, and ending with s/n 4,002,980, the A4's in this block (2,980 total) were modified by Remington by adding an upper-case letter "Z" in front of (prefix) the existing serial number, thereby making this batch of A4 rifles rather unique. The "Z" prefix was never added to a standard A3 rifle, only the A4 sniper rifles had them. The confusing part of this, is that ALL 1903 rifles, both A3' & A4's, were stamped MODEL 1903A3!

When someone states that they have a "Z" prefix 1903A3 rifle, in my opinion, they are implying that they have an original 1903A4 rifle, since the A4 was THE ONLY 1903 rifle to have that designation. mark1 never said that the Z was "added" to his rifle; he only said that, "..Remington used a Z prefix.." When mark1 stated that "Remington used a Z" prefix on their rifles, to me, he is saying that the "Z" on his rifle(s) was placed there by Remington, thereby implying that it is an A4 (even though the receiver is stamped "A3"). When he continued talking about the Z prefix, he also erroneously stated, "..it was not only on the A4's but the A3's as well..." He then went on to say that he "has 2 Remington A3's with a Z prefix".

I am seeing a menagerie of errors and/or misinformation here. Having bought both his rifle/receivers about 13 years apart, and then having owned both for over 15 years, I just find it hard to believe that anyone knowledgeable enough about 1903A3 rifles to acquire spare parts for them for re-building future rifles, could be so blatantly naive about their history, identification and differences. Something as simple as accessing the Remington website for serial numbers and historical data on these rifles would have clarified everything, but apparently, that was never done. Don't mean to be critical or demeaning towards anyone, just trying to clarify facts and prevent any misconceptions.

--728shooter

[Promo]

728shooter, repeating makes your mistakes not better. Re-read the thread, read literature, compare rifles and then you might finally end up accepting that there were Remington 03A3 service rifles (NOT 03A4 rifles!) that got Z prefix stamped, because they were duplicate serial numbers. YOUR error is that you assume these were ONLY in the serial range of 4.000.001 to 4.002.980 and that you believe those were only stamped on 03A4 sniper rifles, what is incorrect.

You can find another one in a very close serial range to the rifles of mark1 posted a few years ago by someone else on the CMP forum here: CMP Forums - View Single Post - My Z prefix Remington 1903A3. (follow the link to the pictures for you to see). He bought this rifle from the CMP. Do you think CMP is part of the conspiracy you are making up?

Edit: found another 03A3 rifle with Z prefix in the same block as mark1's rifles posted on this forum a few years ago by someone else, see https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=30600

... and another one here: Remington 03-a3 30-06 Rifle | Baer Auctioneers - Realty, LLC

[728shooter]

Promo --
If you will re-read the original post by Ed Skeels, the title says "Z SERIES 03A4". Period. Not clones, not 03a3's, not any other altered prefixed serial number rifles, but specifically the "Z SERIES 03A4" (made by Remington). The OP had a legitimate question, and to deviate from that and start discussing other variants, even other manufacturers (SC), only clouds the issue (and the topic) and does not help to answer the OP's questions. That's what I focused on and I chose to stick with the topic of the original post...

--728shooter

[Promo]

Glad that you finally accepted there are 03A3 rifles out there that have the Z prefix as well, not only 03A4 sniper rifles.

Re the thread, read it from the beginning down. It was mentioned the Z prefix was added to 03A4 sniper rifles that had a serial that was used twice. A few posts later I mentioned this did not only apply to 03A4 sniper rifles, but also to 03A3 service rifles. Then mark1 chimed in and mentioned he has two A3 rifles with a Z prefix, of which I then asked him to show off since most collectors are aware of the Z prefix 03A4, but not of the 03A3. He then posted the pictures per my request.

[mark1]

I think what may clear this up is, Remington overran their serial number range on both the 1903A3's and A4's. Remington placed a "Z" on the Remington A3's and A4's that over ran the s/n base. Smith Corona placed a "C" on their A3's. So a Z marked Remington is not always an A4. You need to know the s/n block for the A4 which is Z4,000,000 to Z4,002,290. Only this block of Z prefix are A4's. All other Z prefix Remington's are A3's.

[JGaynor]

1. There were actually only two orders of M1903A4 rifles.

2. the first batch of 20,000

3. the second batch about 8,xxx.

4. M1903A3's and M1903A4's were both made in Remington's Ilion Plant but in different parts of the building.

5. When production started on the second batch of A4's production was also going hot and heavy on A3's in a different part of the plant.

6. The people making the A3's inadvertently overran their production into the serial number range assigned to the new order of A4s.

7. When the error was discovered the plant fell back on their SOP's to deal with the issue. i.e. When a duplicate SN was detected one of the rifles would have its SN altered with a "Z" prefix (at Remington).

This is where the occasional M903A3's with "Z" serials come from.

8. In most instances duplicate serials were occasional, random one-off events. In the case a whole batch of A4 rifles had been produced with serials already used on A3's. A3's which in all likelihood were finished, inspected, packed and out the door. So adding the "Z" to the serial would take care of the first 3,000 rifles in the second order but what about the remaining 5,000 units?

9. For the last 5000~ rifles a new SN block would be created (4992000 to 499859X) to finish out the order

Jim

[mark1]

Please go back and read my post.
Both Remington and Smith Corona overran their assigned serial number blocks. So Remington used a Z and Smith Corona used a C. There were also other firearms that were not M1903A3 /A4's with the same s/n so the duplicate s/n's had to be segregated and the letter system was used.

My 2 rifles are M1903A3 not A4's snipers. And yes s/n 009Z came from the CMP. The location of the Z seems logical as the A3 could be stamped with the Z above the s/n. But the A4's need to be stamped to the left of the s/n due to the placement of the scope base.
Not all Z marked Remington M1903A3 are A4's.

[AlexRod85]

Hmm A3 and A4 production - a 'Z' was added to the A4 duplicate numbers to differentiate with the A3 rifles allocated the same..