Lee Speed/Metford Top (Dust) Cover source?

[BVZ24]

Some confusion might come from the the designation "Lee Speed". Lee Speed is the actual name of the rifle family. It comes from the engineers who designed it, James Lee and Corporal Joseph Speed. When it was adopted by the British, the enlisted Speed's credit was given to Enfield RASF, hence all British government Lees are Lee Enfields.

For the commercial production, manufacturers were allowed to properly credit Speed. All rifles produced as sporter, target, and foreign military patterns are Lee Speeds.

There are several variants of commercial rifle at this time, but for the sake of simplicity, it can be narrowed down to two. Customers can choose if they wanted cleaner stronger Enfield rifling, or weaker accurate Metford rifling for either variant. Commercial metford barreled rifles will have the No 1 Lee Speed action, without a E marked on the barrel.
The first is a sporting pattern. This is a shorter rifle without full wood. May not look much different than a sporterized SMLE, but very rare and desirable.
The second is the military model. These are almost exactly the same as produced for the British. The Ethiopian hoard is made up of these.

Information

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[1903Collector]

good summary

[1903Collector]

Some confusion might come from the the designation "Lee Speed". Lee Speed is the actual name of the rifle family. It comes from the engineers who designed it, James Lee and Corporal Joseph Speed. When it was adopted by the British, the enlisted Speed's credit was given to Enfield RASF, hence all British government Lees are Lee Enfields.

For the commercial production, manufacturers were allowed to properly credit Speed. All rifles produced as sporter, target, and foreign military patterns are Lee Speeds.

There are several variants of commercial rifle at this time, but for the sake of simplicity, it can be narrowed down to two. Customers can choose if they wanted cleaner stronger Enfield rifling, or weaker accurate Metford rifling for either variant. Commercial metford barreled rifles will have the No 1 Lee Speed action, without a E marked on the barrel.
The first is a sporting pattern. This is a shorter rifle without full wood. May not look much different than a sporterized SMLE, but very rare and desirable.
The second is the military model. These are almost exactly the same as produced for the British. The Ethiopian hoard is made up of these.

FYI: The rifle I bought was one of those offered by RTI that has the type designation as "Lee Speed Patents" stamped above the BSA Maker Mark on the right side of the receiver hub. "Lee Speed rifle" may be a misnomer, as it is intrinsically a Lee-Enfield Magazine Metford, but I dont think the reference to it as a Lee Speed and not a Lee Metford is incorrect? The rifle I am asking about is also NOT one of the sporting versions (I only collect old military rifles, besides, I find then fugly!)) but the Lee Speed military version (called Commercial Pattern???) of the Lee Metford . The barrel also has the E designated barrel indicating it is a later model with the Enfield rifling groove style. It is my understanding that the Lee Speeds were upgrades of the Lee Metford rifle sold to those who wanted the better rifling and a generally higher (finish?) quality level, but I am uncertain whether the "higher finish quality" applies to the so-called Commercial Pattern or the Sporting models.

Ive acquired a signed copy of "The Lee-Enfield" by Ian Skennerton, but it is more of a "history of the development of" tome in the style of Hatcher's Krag & 1903 books or Ruth's M1 Carbine compendiums and in my opinion neither serves well as a collector's reference when compared to the books by Poyer, Harrison (1903, M1 Garand) and Larsen (M1 Carbine). Is there no other reference book printed about the Lee Speed/ Lee Metford/ Long Lee Enfield Magazine Rifles?

[Jc5]

Ive acquired a signed copy of "The Lee-Enfield" by Ian Skennerton, but it is more of a "history of the development of" tome in the style of Hatcher's Krag & 1903 books or Ruth's M1 Carbine compendiums and in my opinion neither serves well as a collector's reference when compared to the books by Poyer, Harrison (1903, M1 Garand) and Larsen (M1 Carbine). Is there no other reference book printed about the Lee Speed/ Lee Metford/ Long Lee Enfield Magazine Rifles?

I agree that Skennerton's book is mainly a history ( a good one), but it can serve as a collector's reference if you look at the last 1/3 of the book, pp.431-554, which catalogs every major model and variation, and good coverage of markings. Not sure what else you are looking for in a collector's reference. Skennerton has also published several SAIS paperback booklets that contain just the basic facts on various models (including the Lee-Metford and a good one devoted to changes in parts), and also a small "Lee-Enfield Buyer's Guide" which is a pocket size reference. Some years ago Charles Stratton published a good collectors reference on the SMLE and another on the No.4--although they don't cover the Long Lees--these detail the variations in individual parts, useful to collectors who need to identify the correct part for a rebuild. They do not follow the standard British military nomenclature for parts, which might lead to some confusion, but they are useful books.

As for a collectors guide to the commercial rifles, I'm working on it. It will mainly be a history, but will include a catalog of all variations. Let me know what you want to see specifically, and I will try to include it,

[1903Collector]

jc5, Outstanding! Id love to see the final book!

In my opinion, the best collector's reference book today is The M1 Carbine by L. C. Larsen. Its unlikely there are records extent as comprehensive or the with the same level of detail that is available for the M1 Carbine, but, as a collector I appreciate the quality of the color pics, the individual parts by mfr and type labeled and pictured, the year by year, manufacturer by manufacturer, production block by production block, and part version by version detail, and all the separate sections for part markings, accessories and others is just outstanding!

For me, the distinction between Lee Metford, Lee Speed and Long Lee military pattern rifles is still unclear. There seems to be many Lee Speed military pattern rifles used in conflicts including WWI. Or am I mistaken? So to me, commercial vs. government rifles, after all thee years, seems unimportant, or vague at least.

I confess that I have only skimmed thru Skennerton's book. I will look into the section you suggested, but the standard I compare collector's books is Larsen's.

I very much appreciate your posts on this issue. I will receive the rifle tomorrow and start restoration evaluation and plans. I found a good bayo and scabbard at a "good" price but no frog. I will get a repro frog from Savage. He does excellent wok in my experience. I have yet to follow the one or two leads on the dust cover (the original topic of this entry), but my expectations are low. As I may have mentioned, this rifle is the 103rd, and likely the last for a time, long arm in a collection of long arms of each major belligerent (battle and sniper rifles, and carbines) from the Spanish American War thru the Cold War that is on display at the Texas Veterans Hall of Museum in Denton, Texas north of Dallas (often considered an extension of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex). I need all the help I can get as I am sure Ive got errors in my collection (e.g., I recently determined that an Arisaka T44 in my WWII section was a 1914 WWI rifle!. That was actually an exciting find for me!!)

[Jc5]

jc5, Outstanding! Id love to see the final book!

In my opinion, the best collector's reference book today is The M1 Carbine by L. C. Larsen. Its unlikely there are records extent as comprehensive or the with the same level of detail that is available for the M1 Carbine, but, as a collector I appreciate the quality of the color pics, the individual parts by mfr and type labeled and pictured, the year by year, manufacturer by manufacturer, production block by production block, and part version by version detail, and all the separate sections for part markings, accessories and others is just outstanding!

For me, the distinction between Lee Metford, Lee Speed and Long Lee military pattern rifles is still unclear. There seems to be many Lee Speed military pattern rifles used in conflicts including WWI. Or am I mistaken? So to me, commercial vs. government rifles, after all thee years, seems unimportant, or vague at least.

I confess that I have only skimmed thru Skennerton's book. I will look into the section you suggested, but the standard I compare collector's books is Larsen's.

I very much appreciate your posts on this issue. I will receive the rifle tomorrow and start restoration evaluation and plans. I found a good bayo and scabbard at a "good" price but no frog. I will get a repro frog from Savage. He does excellent wok in my experience. I have yet to follow the one or two leads on the dust cover (the original topic of this entry), but my expectations are low. As I may have mentioned, this rifle is the 103rd, and likely the last for a time, long arm in a collection of long arms of each major belligerent (battle and sniper rifles, and carbines) from the Spanish American War thru the Cold War that is on display at the Texas Veterans Hall of Museum in Denton, Texas north of Dallas (often considered an extension of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex). I need all the help I can get as I am sure Ive got errors in my collection (e.g., I recently determined that an Arisaka T44 in my WWII section was a 1914 WWI rifle!. That was actually an exciting find for me!!)

Thanks for sharing the recommendation of Larson's book. I do not own it, but I have seen it at shows. I am not an expert on M1 carbines, though I have read Ruth's 3-volume set. (IMHO, one does not become an expert by reading a book---though that certainly gives you a strong foundation of knowledge---but by examining hundreds of rifles and comparing them). I admit that I am partial to Ruth's approach, though of course there are problems with it. I see what you mean about Larson's book---I cannot agree with some of the choices he (or his publisher) made, but I can understand why a collector would appreciate seeing the information laid out in that way. I will definitely keep that in mind for the Lee-Speed book, and try offer something that collectors can use to identify the rifle they come across. I am grateful for this insight. It's hard to make one single book that will satisfy all readers and be useful both to collectors and historians, but there's probably not a market for two books.

The arms collection project at the museum in Denton sounds like a very ambitious project! All respect and congratulations to you for undertaking it! If I am down near Dallas I will try to check it out.

Regarding the various terms for Lee rifles, see the last section of Skennertons book... all the government models are laid out there. "Long Lee" is just an informal term for the original rifles that had the long barrels... versus the carbines and (later) the SMLE, which were short rifles. The Lee-Metford was the original British military Lee, and "Metford" refers to the rifling. When they adopted 5-groove rifling in 1895, they adopted the name "Lee-Enfield." The term "Lee-SPeed" does not refer to rifling or to a model, but to patent acknowledgement markings that were found on commercial rifles. By "commercial rifle," I mean one that was produced for sale to anyone besides HM Government. Sometimes these commercial rifles were sold to foreign governments (with War Office permission) or to civilians. They were made on the same machinery as the government rifles, but only the "service patterns" were made to government specifications. There were other models (which I described above) that were "semi-military" or "sporting" (for big game hunters) and also smallbore versions (for smallbore target shooting). The service pattern rifles that were made for target shooting were of the military pattern by were often a higher grade of fit and finish (these are the ones you hear about being of a higher grade---please see the article I referenced above for a fuller discusson of the Lee-Speed target models). But as a customer, you paid extra for that---if you wanted one that was plain grade, you could get that too. I hope this makes it all less vague.

Yes, Lee-Speeds saw action is various conflicts--- not as general issue of course, but in the hands of some officers, and in certain other circumstances. Jameson Raid, Boer War (both sides), Rhodesia, WWI (as sniping rifles), and some purchased by the Royal Navy (complicated story).

[1903Collector]

jc5, again, thanks for your time and knowledge sharing.

Regarding the museum. It is essentially there to honor of Texas veterans, past and present, and to collect their stories into our data base for posterity. The story of many a soldier is either never told due to reluctance of the soldier to recount such events least they relive it, or due to their passing without leaving any legacy. It was started by two Vietnam Air Force non-com vets for that very reason. They approached me over a year ago to display part of my collection for a time to help raise funds and patronage. I saw a win-win there since I could count on two hands the number of people who saw my collection in my display room at home. My biggest flaw and asset, both, is my tendance to share my growing knowledge of the history that the firearms represent as well as the firearms themselves. I still notice the look in the eyes of some of a deer staring into headlights while I prattle on about any aspect of the collection when I am attending the museum, but work on reading which want to hear info and which dont.

It has been my practice that once I buy, or decide to buy a new type of firearm I invest in the best book or books available, if available, and study the subject as time allows. I am blessed with near photographic memory so once read, I seem to both grasp the content as well as retain it with the ability to recount the info relatively accurately. I cant say my library is vast, but it is growing and is getting close to filling a 6' tall x 3' wide 5 shelf book case. It was in this practice that I came across Larsen's book after working on about 50 carbines. I had acquired the works of Reisch, Ruth, Harrison, and one or two others but never found answers to all my questions in one single book. In my experience Larsen's work is the closest thing to a "stand alone" reference book on any of the 88 different long arms in my collection. I worked on almost 100 more carbines afterwards and used and abused the edition I first bought to the point that I "had" to replace it this year with the latest edition. I would be grateful if you could elaborate what you see as the negative issues of Larsen's book. I try to maintain an objective approach to everything, never latching on to any opinion, but always challenging my perceptions and on-going conclusions.

The Lee Speed I acquired (and hope to pick u today) came from Ethiopia. That is the only provenance available at the moment, but it was in the hands of a soldier (perhaps combatant is more correct) and COULD have been involved in one of the conflicts (in this case WWI) and used by one of the countries I count as a primary belligerent (in this case, the British Empire). In addition to this criteria my collection is limited to non-automatic long arms of the modern era (smokeless powder cartridges). It is not 100% complete, but Im getting close.

I expect the Lee Speed will need a lot of work and likely repairs to at least the lower hand guard, but for my purposes, it fits nicely to the theme of the collection. There are no museum queens in my collection. A few are in VERY GOOD to EXCELLENT condition, but all have clearly been in the hands of a soldier and are likely to be used by the country of origin during the subject conflicts (I just have no way to know if it saw any actual action).

[1903Collector]

Thanks for sharing the recommendation of Larson's book. I do not own it, but I have seen it at shows. I am not an expert on M1 carbines, though I have read Ruth's 3-volume set. (IMHO, one does not become an expert by reading a book---though that certainly gives you a strong foundation of knowledge---but by examining hundreds of rifles and comparing them). I admit that I am partial to Ruth's approach, though of course there are problems with it. I see what you mean about Larson's book---I cannot agree with some of the choices he (or his publisher) made, but I can understand why a collector would appreciate seeing the information laid out in that way. I will definitely keep that in mind for the Lee-Speed book, and try offer something that collectors can use to identify the rifle they come across. I am grateful for this insight. It's hard to make one single book that will satisfy all readers and be useful both to collectors and historians, but there's probably not a market for two books.

The arms collection project at the museum in Denton sounds like a very ambitious project! All respect and congratulations to you for undertaking it! If I am down near Dallas I will try to check it out.

Regarding the various terms for Lee rifles, see the last section of Skennertons book... all the government models are laid out there. "Long Lee" is just an informal term for the original rifles that had the long barrels... versus the carbines and (later) the SMLE, which were short rifles. The Lee-Metford was the original British military Lee, and "Metford" refers to the rifling. When they adopted 5-groove rifling in 1895, they adopted the name "Lee-Enfield." The term "Lee-SPeed" does not refer to rifling or to a model, but to patent acknowledgement markings that were found on commercial rifles. By "commercial rifle," I mean one that was produced for sale to anyone besides HM Government. Sometimes these commercial rifles were sold to foreign governments (with War Office permission) or to civilians. They were made on the same machinery as the government rifles, but only the "service patterns" were made to government specifications. There were other models (which I described above) that were "semi-military" or "sporting" (for big game hunters) and also smallbore versions (for smallbore target shooting). The service pattern rifles that were made for target shooting were of the military pattern by were often a higher grade of fit and finish (these are the ones you hear about being of a higher grade---please see the article I referenced above for a fuller discusson of the Lee-Speed target models). But as a customer, you paid extra for that---if you wanted one that was plain grade, you could get that too. I hope this makes it all less vague.

Yes, Lee-Speeds saw action is various conflicts--- not as general issue of course, but in the hands of some officers, and in certain other circumstances. Jameson Raid, Boer War (both sides), Rhodesia, WWI (as sniping rifles), and some purchased by the Royal Navy (complicated story).

What is your opinion of "The Lee-Enfield Rifle" by E. G. B. Reynolds?

[Jc5]

What is your opinion of "The Lee-Enfield Rifle" by E. G. B. Reynolds?

It is a great book. Generally considered to be be superseded by Skennerton, but still a great read. Kudos to Reynolds for being the first one to publish a full book on these rifles. That is quite an achievement, with no precedent to follow.