1933 Soviet Sniper Manual and other things

[Surpmil]

I seriously doubt if any consideration was given to the Ross rifle. While its straight pull bolt was easy to operate, that it jammed made it less reliable. As for the P14 rifle, why bother even considering it? Retooling, manufacture of jigs, training of workforce all mitigate against a new foreign design instead of the M91/30.

The PE scope was not available when Sniper was filmed in 1931. Even if the PE scope was developed earlier and in time for the film, I question whether the Soviets would allow new technology to make a screen debut. State secret? Finally regarding the movie, you do raise a valid question as to the film's distribution outside of the Soviet Union. Are you aware of any other WW I or interwar movie about snipers; especially those in the West?

As to simplicity of the M91/30 bolt to the P14, just look at the number of parts and ability of the soldier to disassemble it. I've disassembled the K98 and 03 bolt but never tried a Lee-Enfield (lemme check the manuals).

Jamming issue is a subject in itself; no space for that here except to say the design like all straight pulls lacks the leverage advantage of a turn-bolt, but as long as dimensions and case quality are maintained it's not a problem. The Soviets would have had no trouble figuring all that out; they were already well familiar with captured Steyr-Mannlichers. The rifles were retained for sniping in the CEF right to the end of the war, and according to Frank Iriam whose book you would probably find interesting, Ross Mk.IIIs were supplied new from the factory into 1918. We know from photos they were used with and without scopes as the factory iron sights were considered good enough by some.

The Lee Enfield is even simpler than the Mauser actions such as the Springfield. Ross Mk.III is pretty simple too, though machining is somewhat complex. Not that it matters much as soldiers were not supposed to take them apart in any case.

No, am not aware of any movies or docs dealing with the subject in the interwar period.

Logical deduction and hard evidence are two different things. You may well be correct but per Whacker's book, German Sniper Rifles, there were no Reichswehr sniping schools in the interwar era. The old tradition of giving the scoped rifle to the best shot in the company prevailed. The only thing the soldier was taught was how to maintain it and to adjust it for distances.

Does Whacker make a definite statement to that effect based on records he cites?

While the Soviets may have had enthusiasm, they lacked equipment and they'd have to be iron sighted snipers since Soviet optics were not available until the PE scope was developed. Similarly, a shortage of rifles in the early World War II compelled the United States, Britain and Australia to resort to iron sighted rifles for training purposes. The aforementioned acquisition of German scopes allowed the NKVD Border Guards to have scoped rifles, but not the Red Army. That had to wait.

When you say "were not available" you mean they were not on issue to the Red Army? Probably not beyond experimental purposes, as the OGPU/NKVD would get priority if they wanted it. Probably there was a certain amount of overlap between the Red Army and "the Organs [of state security]" as they were called. What the Red Army may have begun, may have been adopted by the Organs or vice-versa. That all remains to be determined.

Yes, I was suggesting the PEM scopes would not appear in film being new and secret and therefore the experimental stuff could be used as it was now effectively obsolete.

Absent a memoir or documentation proving contrary to that, I'll stand by Whacker that the Reichswehr did not operate sniping schools. The Reichswher had more important things to do. Von Seeckt wanted every private to be able to function as a sergeant, every sergeant to be able to perform the duties of a Hauptman, etc.

Whacker may be right, but of course, but even if there is some documentary evidence that such schools were not operated, one has to remember that until the repudiation of Versailles, a degree of duality or pretense was maintained internally as well as externally that Germany was conforming to the Treaty requirements, when in fact of course she was not; the bases in Russia being the most glaring example. What happened in Russia (probably) stayed in Russia" That would be no more than obvious and customary military secrecy. Those who need to know do, and the rest don't, at least not officially. Just something to bear in mind.

We had talked about foreign designs and the Soviets earlier. In hindsight, the Soviets did not automatically reject foreign designs. The Vickers 6 ton tank became the T-26, the Christie fast tank became the BT series of tanks (later evolving into the A20, T-32 and later T-34), Some of those multi-turret Soviets tanks were influenced by British designs. For ships, the Tsarist Russians relied on Italian designs (those Marat type four triple turret battleships) and for the Soviets, Italian designs for cruisers.

I don't disagree with you that the Soviets were enthusiastic about sniping. They were and produced the first post WW I sniping manual in 1933 and were screening recruits for snipers during the basic induction process. This was during a period that the Western Allies (of WW I) were removing scopes and selling them for surplus. Soviets may have had a sniping program that preceded the manual, but I've found no evidence and it was only until the PE scopes were produced that they could equip their snipers with optically equipped rifles.

Who was removing and selling scopes in the 1930s? The British Empire and Commonwealth was fielding the P14 with Patt.18 scope in limited numbers, and the selling off of the UK's WWI scopes was long over by then. You'll see that Skennertion refers to the proposal that the better WWI Aldis scopes be kept in store for possible future reuse, but we can see from the miscellaneous scopes fitted to the 421 Alex Martin P14 conversions done in 1940-41 that they almost certainly were not. And if further evidence was needed, many of those better Aldis No.3 and 4 scopes showed up in the 1920s and 30s being fitted to sporting rifles by leading gunmakers.

I believe the USA dumped the Warner & Swasey scopes in the 1920s judging by the advertising of them for sale, though they probably were available from dealers into the 1930s as even at $7.50 a piece they apparently didn't sell very well!

A. J. Whacker in his book on German Sniper Rifles asserts that while some sniper rifles were retained by the Reichswher, there was no specialized training. It was thought by the Reichswehr that sniping arose because of trench warfare and that the Reichswher did not anticipate trench warfare in the near future.

The scopes were sold as surplus in the 1930s, not the '20s when the Reichswher began converting then back to normal configuration. Instructions were issued on how unit armorers were to accomplish this. This practice was stopped in 1935.

I haven't read Whacker, but if he documents that then that is an interesting angle, perhaps suggesting that by the early 30s sniping was indeed being forgotten and considered passé in the Reichswehr. Is there any evidence that the scope and mount combination fielded by the Reichswehr after WWI was being disposed of at that time? If not, that might suggest merely that WWI rifles, or just scopes, that had been kept hidden from Versailles-mandated destruction through the 1920s, were by the early 30s considered to be no longer needed and could therefore be sold off? Sometimes such decisions are made by "one hand" while "the other hand" doesn't know what is going on, and depression-era economy or fund-raising may have been a part of that as the Depression hit Germany very hard in the early 1930s. Could be that some were sold from some military districts/departments and not from others. One would have to know exactly how such things were organized and controlled in Germany at that time. We do know that at least some Gew98 SSG's were still in store well into WWII because Waffen SS formations were equipped with them at that time..

Very possible for Tsarist officers to visit the Western Front and see the schools, but lets not discount that the Tsarist Russians experienced German sniping on their own front too. Hence their development of their own periscope rifle. This is largely a counter measure and the nature of a periscope rifle makes it less steady than a nornal scoped rifle. Even if Tsarist officers did learn about sniping from visiting a school, would any of them survive the purge of the Tsarist officers or later White Russian officers after the revolution? Unless they defected to the Reds, their chances of survival was slim. Heck, even if they turned Red, their chances of surviving a pre-war purge was also slim. Purges, it's what the commies do well.

I was referring to those Russians who actually served in the Russian force sent to fight in France - it's not a well known episode of the war in the Anglosphere. Russian Expeditionary Force in France - Wikipedia