Mk2*, Folding Bren Tripod, Airborne, Mk2/1, Mk3 Information Thread

[42rocker]

Mk2*, Folding Bren Tripod, Airborne, Mk2/1, Mk3 Information Thread

This is one of several Threads that I'm starting in an effort to provide someplace to find Bren Tripod information.

The Mk2*, Folding Bren Tripod, (Tripod, Folding Bren LMG), Airborne, Paratrooper, Mk2/1, India's Mk3, and I'm sure there are more names for it out there.
But, for this thread I'm going to call it "Mk2*".

Why did I do the research, take the pics, and write this thread? 2 reasons, 1st to share with others, 2nd my Father was a 1st Lt in the 11th Airborne during WW2. So anything Airborne has a special meaning to me.

THANKS to ANYONE that posted or shared information about their Bren Tripod. With special THANKS to Brit Plumber, Kev G, tombear, machinegun Dave at Sarco, Brian at BRP, lucky#13, toolman, and Dolf Goldsmith (RIP) who shared so much with everyone.
Also if I've posted or shared anything in this thread that is your personal information that you would to see removed from this thread please let me know and I'll work on getting it removed. Note almost everything I'm posting I found on the internet, so it's already out there.

History? The Mk2* plans that I have copies of, show they were sealed on 04/12/1944. Also lists, that I have copies of, showed how to change Mk1s and Mk1*s and Mk2s to the Mk2* folding tripod. While I personally found that the lists and diagrams on how to convert, were interesting, I personally don't believe that any Mk2*s were made from old tripods. I believe that Birmingham Small Arms Company Limited (BSA) just made them from parts that they would have had on hand. At that time they were making current Mk2 Tripods. Making special Mk2* parts as needed. From what I've found, BSA was the only company that made them. Now, the Mk3 was made in India, somewhat different as will be shown later. So the other Bren Tripod companies, CCM and AGE did not make any as I understand.

Why make a folding tripod? Interesting question, as Great Britian had made and used over 120,000 Bren Tripods up to this point. Several thoughts come to my mind, the UK 1st Airborne Division may or may not have felt a need to request a folding tripood. Another thought is after seeing the American, M2 30cal folding tripod, UK Forces made have felt the need for a folder. Who has a official answer? Not I.

When did they start production? I have a copy of a letter talking about a request to the BSA factory to make 50 Mk2*s starting on D-Day with delivery within a week. So, BSA started production on 06/06/1944 and within the 7 day requested time period, BSA produced 57 according to the letter. With plans for operation Market Garden (Sept 17th, 1944) addition Mk2*s might have been requested. According to records, that I have copies of, 170 "Tripod, folding Bren LMG" were dropped to the "Red Devils" 1st Airborne. Dropped with the Paratroops or in the gliders or dropped in cargo tubes to them. All the record shows is 170 dropped. Plus lots of other material.

Serial Numbers? With Great Thanks to Brit Plumber for his posted estimates, he shows a start at L5000 est. and ending 1944 at L5200 est. Need to start someplace. After lots of hours searching the internet I've found and have pics of serial number L4935 44 (1944) also I own serial number L4997 44 (1944). Where does 1944 end I don't know. Brit Plumber has a L5200 est. He also shows L5201 going thru L5700 est for 1945. Love some more serial numbers to share. Post them in this thread PLEASE. Or private message them to me. What follows are serial numbers I have pics of or believe the person stating the information. So a final guess of 750 to 800 might be a good total guess.

1944 list Mk2*
sale record L4935 44
42rocker L4997 44
42rocker L5035 44
Kev G L5080 44

1945 list Mk2*
photobucket pic L5668 45

Other list Mk2*
Apex had one ????? ??
Brit Plumber ????? ??

That's all of the Mk2* serial numbers that I've found searching the internet and several forums.

On with the show. As they say..

Here are 4 pics of my L4997 44. The 4th pic is what it looked like after I got it out of the box, 05/2023. Still needs work and the T&E is from CCM and should be from BSA. Otherwise the rest is there, had to dig thru my spare parts boxes and also order in a few parts from my friend Brian at BRP and also Apex. Going to display about 5 different Bren Tripods Mid August, 2023 at a gun show in Fla.

1st pic show right side. Note the folding joint area on the right body tube.



2nd pic shows left side. Almost looks like a normal Mk2. Almost.



3rd pic shows what it looks like folded up. T&E should be folded in. Opps.



4th pic what Mk2* L4997 looked like when I got it out of the box, 05/2023.



The American M2 30cal tripod was started being made in the early 1930's. Smaller and lighter than the Bren tripod. Lower to the ground. Cheaper to make also I'll bet. But if shooting over a distance I'll take the Bren tripod line. If I'm the one carrying the tripod, make mine the M2 30cal tripod, Thank You.
UK thoughts on the American M2 30cal Tripod. Also notice date. 22/12/1943.



A few pics of the M2 30cal Tripod.

1st is a 1937 pic of a 1917 machine gun on a M2 30cal tripod. Slight minor changes as time went by.


Thanks to Rock Island Arsenal for sharing the pic.

2 pics of my cut and rewelded M2 30cal tripod. I'm still working on this one. Need to add a lock nut to the traverse bar and clean up and repaint or park.





Next part will be right up.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[42rocker]

Part 2

Next 2 pics are of the Mk2* and M2 30cal tripods next to each other. Setup and folded.





Next 3 pics are of the "special" areas of the Mk2*.

1st folding area in the right body tube. Also bar that the traverse bar T-handle locks into.



2nd T- handle lock in area, when open.



3rd left hand pivot area for the traverse bar.



Next 6 pics were taken showing how the Mg2* is folded up. Note I left the legs open to try to show everything clearer. Then I folded up the legs.

1st Un-screw the T-handle screw.



2nd move the traverse bar. Note location pin and T-handle screw in.



3rd fold the traverse bar in and screw the T-handle to lock it into the small metal bar for the closed position.



4th over view at this point.



5th fold the right body tube etc in. Look at the folding joint.



6th bottom view of the folding area and locking position.



Now fold the 3 legs into the body and your done.

Part 3 to follow

[42rocker]

The India Mk3 folding tripo.
Blueprints stamped Ishapore India 06/06/1944. Several small production runs around 50 were done and tested by Indian troops. I have not seen reports of large production runs and I have never seen a pic of a Mk3 as of this time. Major difference that I see is that both body legs fold in and there is a locking lever on both folding joints. And other items are different.



Last 2 pics are of how you can lock your T&E in nicely. There is a tab that sticks out and it can go into the cut in ring area on the bottom of the T&E wheel.





There Clear as Mud. Hope you had more fun reading and seeing the pics than I did taking the pics and writing this. LOL
Mistakes I'm sure they are there to be found. Please enjoy them, as they, like this thread are free.

I'm going to try to put together a thread on the Mk2 Bren Tripod next and so on.

Later 42rocker

[42rocker]

And the 1st corrections are in.
In part 1, the 1937 photo, it is not a 1917, it's a 1919a2 Calvary Machine gun.
Also the photo credit should go to the Rock Island Arsenal Museum.

Next correction please. I'm sure there are more to find.

I'm working on the Bren Mk2 Tripod Thread and hope to post July 1st, 2023 area. Have any info on Mk2 that you want to share please send it to me in a private message.

Thanks

Later 42rocker

[42rocker]

Here are a couple more serial numbers for Mk2*

The one sold by apex was a 1944 # 4982

post on the 1919a4 board a 1945 #5251

#5251 is in great condition.

------------------------------------------- Mk3 -----------------------------------------------

I just bought a Mk3 Airborne folding tripod that was made in India and before the end of the year (2025) will post more info and pictures of it.


Later 42rocker

[Peter Laidler]

Just a little point about these tripods. In the UK Military, we used to annotate a slight change in spec with a star. Such as a No1 Mk3 or a No4 Mk1. So when they were slightly modified, the rifles etc became the No1 Mk3* or as we all know,, the No 4 Mk1*. Later, this became a bit confusing so we stopped that and in the late part of the 40's, the 'star' was deleted and instead, the rifle or pistol etc became known as the No1 Mk3/1, the No4 Mk1/1, then on to the No4 Mk1/2 and then on to become the No4 Mk1/3 or the little pistol, the Pistol revolver .380" No2 Mk1, then 1/1 and then 1/2.

So a Mk2* tripod is just an old description of what would now be a Mk2/1. A 2** will be a Mk2/2. NOT 2-slash-2, but 2-oblique-2 for the perfectionists among you

As for tripods generally. Nothing more than finger trapping machines. A bit like 3" mortar mounts. Always wear leather protective gauntlets....... To be honest, the only tripods I ever saw in service were as an apprentice, we saw the different mark/types and had a couple of lessons on them but nothing after that, especially in service where the gun was just a section and platoon level machine gun. I did see a whole pile of them, virtually piled up at the back of an old damp store room where they'd been since the regular Army moved out of Knook Camp in the early/mid 60's. The next time I saw some......, just about 4 or 5, was when the Vickers was withdrawn from the OHF role awaiting the trials to ascertain the suitability of the new FN MAG-58/L7 GPMG in the OHF role. But especially the not-yet trusted buffered GPMG tripod (was it a Canadian design BAR or am I thinking about the 81mm mortar mount ?)

When this was being formulated, we had specially calibrated Brens together with specially calibrated tripods with exact mounting point brackets - same as the Brens - We were using both .303" Mk2 Brens, so said, to use up the existing loose boxed .303 ammunition plus 7.62mm L4 guns. Tripods were marked with a painted identifier and also had a 'calibration' plate tack welded onto one of the legs that was used to sit a clinometer. This dictated the angle of the gun used to fire over the heads of the crunchies operating beneath the arc of fire. That said, I notice that a local dealer had a full set of calibrating gauges for the OHF Bren guns and tripods recently

While using the Brens and trials with the GPMG's over the OHF training area of Battlesbury Bowl, a yellow and black bumblebee striped painted Saladin (or was it a saracen...) would drive across into the area to ensure that the bullets could not fall into the working area but only in the outer beaten zone. Real bullets hitting the Saracen must have been a bit of a PITA for the crew!!!!!

Only used for a year or so + some and the GPMG came on stream.

There, a working Armourers total experience with Bren tripods, all in 10 lines of his computer...........

[browningautorifle]

But especially the not-yet trusted buffered GPMG tripod (was it a Canadian design BAR or am I thinking about the 81mm mortar mount ?)

We had the buffered mount for the GPMG but I thought it was a "Straight out of UK stores" mount. The 81mm was annotated as UK "L" number as well. Both yours I think.

[Peter Laidler]

Or was it the C2 sight for the 81mm mortar that was Canadian? I seem to recall that it was a 'Canadian ?' C2 dial sight But time is taking its toll. There was talk of the C2 dial sight being adapted to the GPMG. But better heads prevailed and the GPMG remained in the sustained fire role. That magnificent ball of fire, the 81mm Mortars retained the indirect fire role. Something that they excelled at

[browningautorifle]

Or was it the C2 sight for the 81mm mortar that was Canadian

Well, we did use the same sight on the mortar and GPMG SF role. That way it turned the whole affair into a compass the same as the mortar. I tried explaining that here one thread but one individual just couldn't see it. I don't know what the UK used to register their targets in the SF role. I remember teaching the intricacies of SF to the small arms courses, they termed it "Black magic"... Our indirect fire role was only meant to fire on targets you couldn't see direct line of sight due to a rise in the ground or weather, smoke or foliage. We were never going to use them like the old Vickers providing plunging fire.

[Peter Laidler]

I had a funny feeling in my bones that there was a Canadian connection '.....somewhere' The C2 was a well made sight. I have to admit that dial sights and indirect fire were always a bit of black magic - or what we used to call white mand magic - in the olden days. I learned JUST enough to not look stupid when dealing/talking with the SF crews