Brit veterans prefered SMLE to N0.4 rifle

[Amatikulu]

I believe the P1907 bayonet was not sharpened in service so I think you'd have a hell of a job trying to take a hand off. I was also under the impression that bayonet training involved thrusting with the point of the bayonet, parrying and clubbing with the butt


The No.4 rifle doesn't really appear to have been issued in great numbers to active theatres of war until D-Day from the photographic evidence I have seen. Apart from Orde Wingate, does anyone have any photos of the forgotten 14th Army, armed with No.4's?

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[Alan de Enfield]

I believe the P1907 bayonet was not sharpened in service so I think you'd have a hell of a job trying to take a hand off. I was also under the impression that bayonet training involved thrusting with the point of the bayonet, parrying and clubbing with the butt


The No.4 rifle doesn't really appear to have been issued in great numbers to active theatres of war until D-Day from the photographic evidence I have seen. Apart from Orde Wingate, does anyone have any photos of the forgotten 14th Army, armed with No.4's?

According to the 'link' below it was No4s in use, but the picture is a No1 !!

http://homepage.mac.com/michaelrhys/blip/weapons.html

[Alfred]

I believe the P1907 bayonet was not sharpened in service so I think you'd have a hell of a job trying to take a hand off. I was also under the impression that bayonet training involved thrusting with the point of the bayonet, parrying and clubbing with the butt

It takes far less of an edge to slice through meat and bone when the blade is at the end of 9 pounds of rifle.
Besides which I've seen few well used bayonets that hadn't been sharpened to some extent, and broadswords seldom had an edge sharper than the average bayonet.
If you've ever cleared bush using a bushaxe or billhook you'll recognize the mechanics.
Too sharp a point or edge will lead to the blade hanging up in bone.


You aren't meant to swing the rifle wildly in an arc, but thats another desperation move that can buy you some breathing space.

Theres a Japanese martial art of bayonet fighting, forget the name of it, that seems based on the ancient use of the traditional pole arm with swordlike blade. The French also developed bayonet fighting to a high degree, and taught their methods to US instructors during WW1.
At Corregidor the Japanese were astounded by the skill of US sailors who fought off successive waves of imperial Marines. The US Navy was for a time known as the best Bayonet fighters in the world. Repelling boarders was still a major part of their training back then.

Open sights with long eye relief give the best chance at following and leading moving targets.
Some officers even suggested fitting the Garand with open sights.

A bayonet and sheath my brother once owned had built in spring loaded sharpening steels that honed the edge each time the blade was inserted and withdrawn.

PS
JNC: U.S. Marine Corps Individual Combat Course, July 1944

1. Bayonet Fighting: This type of bayonet fighting uses a continuous slashing attack. Recent additions to this system are night fighting and group assault tactics for combinations of two and three bayonet fighters. The recently perfected system of Marine bayonet training uses no dummies or protective equipment. The man-against-man training is designed to condition fighting reflexes and to develop maximum speed and combat timing.

BAYONET FIGHTING (Marine Method)

The new bayonet method outlined here is not a modification of the standard Army style, but a departure based of a different foundation. Changes from the Army bayonet system have been made in blade position, stance, footwork, attack movements, and tactics.

Essence of the new method is the slashing tactics developed during the past twenty-five years by Col. A.J. Drexel Biddle, USMC. Recent additions to this system include night fighting, group assault tactics, and a system of training based on conditioning reflexes. The effect is a fast, flexible slashing attack.

This method can be taught to Marines in 10 hours. There should be at least one instructor to each platoon. Training is built up logically in the natural sequence (as listed below) of stance, footwork, parries, handcuts, throat slashes, and follow-up movements, with individual and group combat tactics.

Bayonet movements and sequence of instruction:

Flat blade stance

Footwork (Steps forward, back, left, right, forward and rear pass, pivot)

Quick thrust (Intended to provide opposition for partner executing flat blade movements and as follow up movement after slashes.)

Slashes (vertical hand-cut, lateral, reverse.)

Parries (left and right)

Hand Cut – Throat Slash (with left Parry)

Double parry (left) – Hand Cut – Throat Slash.

Disengage (from left Parry) – Hand Cut – Throat Slash

Above three movements (Hand Cut, Double Parry and Disengage) done from right parry.

Downward Parry – Throat Slash

Feint Low – Slash (Left and Right)

Throw Point

Butt Strokes (Vertical, Horizontal, Smash, Rearward)

Night fighting tactics (Extremely low crouch with rifle butt close to or on deck and a minimum of movement, looking upward for opponent to be silhouetted against sky, maximum speed during attack).

Bayonet vs. Knife, vs. Club, vs. Unarmed Combat.

(Hand Cuts and throat slashes)

Also near as I can tell the Japanese civilian Jukendo is limited to thrusts, but the Military Jukenkukuto (sp?)
is more advanced.

[Bindi2]

I believe the P1907 bayonet was not sharpened in service so I think you'd have a hell of a job trying to take a hand off. I was also under the impression that bayonet training involved thrusting with the point of the bayonet, parrying and clubbing with the butt


The No.4 rifle doesn't really appear to have been issued in great numbers to active theatres of war until D-Day from the photographic evidence I have seen. Apart from Orde Wingate, does anyone have any photos of the forgotten 14th Army, armed with No.4's?

There is a photo of Aussies sharping bayonets in New Guinea. Big wet stone wheel foot pedal job. The picture is titled sharping bayonets

[BushyFromOz]

There is a photo of Aussies sharping bayonets in New Guinea. Big wet stone wheel foot pedal job. The picture is titled sharping bayonets

And sure enough there they all were. An entire acre of a bueatiful green meadow flanked by rubber trees was filled with Australian soldiers, each making final preparations for the long haul ahead. As White noted "their shirts were off and their backs were suntanned, rippling with muscle. They had set up Bren guns against surprise strafing - an automatic precaution that marked them as veterans. Some were singing, some writing letters home. One group had brrowed a small grind stone and were sharpening their bayonets, slouch hats pulled rakishly down and their eyes bright and reflective"
KOKODA - Peter Fitszimmons, p249