Cartridges

[Daan Kemp]

8x50R Siamese Mauser
8x50R Austrian Mannlicher

Information

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[RCS]

Mr Kemp is correct

Also used in converted Lee Enfield Rifles in India when there was a ban on military calibers (1907)

Also seen photos of French Lebel rifles in 8x50r Mannlicher

[CINDERS]

My 6.5×58mm Vergueiro and packet.
H/S Kynoch 6.5mm M. (M- denoting Mauser)

This a centerfire rimless cartridge designed in 1904 - 1939, specifically for the Mauser-Vergueiro, chosen as service rifle of the Portuguese Army. It was adopted to replace the rimmed 8×60mmR Guedes and 8×56mmR Kropatschek Corto cartridges originally filled with blackpowder, which had been used with Kropatschek rifles procured in the mid-1880s. Smokeless powder allowed for a higher velocity round and further calibre reduction to 6.5 mm, a step already taken by other European countries, e.g. Sweden (6.5×55mm Swedish) and Italy (6.5×52mm Carcano).

It remained the service rifle cartridge until the Karabiner 98k replaced the Mauser-Vergueiro pattern in 1939. The round was also used for sporting purposes, manufacturers like DWM and Kynoch offered it until the 1960s.

In military use the common projectile weighs 155 grains and travels at up to 2,400 feet per second. A lot of the Mauser-Vergueiro rifles were later rechambered to accept the standard 7.92×57mm cartridge of the newer Mauser 98k pattern.

303 MkVII for scale.

[Daan Kemp]

The Vergueiro wasn't really a Mauser, entirely Portuguese designed by Vergueiro and only manufactured by Mauser. Commonly known in South Africa as the Portuguese Mauser or pencil Mauser [due to the long slim cartridge]. Portugal 'lent' several thousand of these rifles to the Union of South Africa in WWI.

Seems to be a lively shooting community in Portugal for the Vergueuiro in 6,5 and 7,92 calibres. Nice long slim rifle. Carrtidges seem to be unobtainium.

[CINDERS]

The chap I brought these off some years ago said they were a pretty rare type of cartridge.
I like the 6.5's as they have predominantly long projectiles my 6.5 x 284 shoots very well with the Berger 140gn VLD's but almost to the same poi it also shows a preference for the Nosler 140gn RDF's with the Hornady 140gn ELD-M and 143gn ELD-X almost as good all are long projectiles. I've got some Hornady 147gn ELD-M but have yet to do any load development with them.

[CINDERS]

Continuing with the 6.5mm type.

H/S PS - Pirotecnia Militar de Sevilla, Sevilla, Spain I think this might be the maker but it might have been made in Italy the primer has like an anchor with a 3 imposed on it.

The 6.5×54mm Mannlicher–Schönauer also known as 6.5×54 Mannlicher–Schönauer Greek or simply 6.5 Greek is a 6.5 mm (.264" cal.) rimless rifle cartridge used in the Mannlicher–Schönauer rifle. It is the direct descendant of the 6.5×53mmR rimmed cartridge from the 1891 Mannlicher rifle, designed to function smoothly through the Schönauer's rotary magazine. 6.5 mm bullets are typically known for their high ballistic coefficients and sectional density, which gives them great stability in flight, resistance to wind deflection, and high penetrating power. It, along with the Mannlicher–Schönauer rifle, was first introduced in Paris at the 1900 World's Fair.

303 MkVII for scale.

[RCS]

When SAKO bolt action rifles and SKS rifles first appeared on the market chambering the 7,62x39 cartridge, this
caliber was not available to the public. Reloaders had to form the 7,39 Soviet cartridge from 6,5 M-S or 6,5 Carcano.
(I have a few 6,5 M-S formed into 7,39. sometimes you had to turn the base just a little depending on the make of
brass).

[RCS]

Cinders, Enjoyed your post about hunting and shooting the 444 Marlin. I had an old friend who was the local Postmaster who bought a Marlin 444. He did not reload so I offered to reload his 444 if he bought the RCBS loading dies. Had some problems at first with the case neck collapse while seating the bullet and new primers that would drop out after seated. Finally got some better brass and worked out the problems. The Postmaster shot some nice large deer in the upper part of Michigan with his 444 Marlin, most with a single shot. He wanted to hunt in Canada and thought about Alaska.

By chance he found a small collection of Winchester Model 71's both a rifle and the rare carbine and another Model 71 in the 450 Alaskan caliber, he bought all three. The 450 Alaskan was his ticket to Canada and Alaska. His 450 was built by George Pearsall of Chicago, a well known custom gunsmith in the 1940's and 50's. New checkered wood, peep sight mounted on the receiver side. It came with custom RCBS loading/forum dies too. The best load was a 350 gr half jacket at over 2500 fps. I fired the cases with 400 gr lead bullets to forum the neck. Really a nice rifle and I liked it better than the 444 Marlin. I lost contact with the Postmaster but know he took it to Canada

The photo shows a factory 348 Winchester and 450 Alaskan, COTW used my photo of the 450 with lead bullet for years

[CINDERS]

Pics! looks like all the pics from this thread have gone in to web space!

444 Marlin.
Yes the secret to stopping the neck collapse on the 444 was having a good inside neck chamfer, the 336 Marlin was a light rifle and with the full power loads I was only getting 3 reloads per case using 4227 in R.P cases it seemed when firing the rifle it had no cast off coming straight back into your shoulder.
I remember once we were cutting down @16" saplings with it when a know it all chap kept badgering me to shoot it (*every group has one!!!) in the end I gave in more to shut him up than anything.
So I loaded a single into the chamber and told him to close the action when he had it to his shoulder as I was taking no chances with him, he expounded how he had shot plenty of hard kicking rifles and knew what he was doing with it.
So when he mounted the rifle to his shoulder I warned him his eye relief was not sufficient to which I got a rebuke that he knew all about such things so I shut up and moved close behind him incase of him dropping my rifle well he let drive at the tree unknown if he hit it as I was watching what was happening.
Anyway the result was one of the best Weatherby eye half doughnut's I have seen, well the claret was p*ssing out of it very well luckily none got on the bluing of the tang or receiver.
We took him to the Harvey Hospital E.D where he received 4 stitches for his effort needless to say it was a very quiet trip to & from hospital.

As a foot note on recoil I once burst a blood vessel in my shoulder shooting my 12 ga SKB semi auto in a trap competition I did not stop straight away and ended up holding the gun off my shoulder eventually I had to stop it was just agony to keep going.

[RCS]

Winchester introduced their first semi auto rifles in 1905, these rifles used the blow-back type of action where the heavy bolt and lighter cartridge work together - like the modern day 22 rim fire semi auto.

The first cartridge was the 32 WSL which was expensive and for small game. But has a history as it became the 30M1 carbine cartridge with modifications. (early 30 carbine headstamps are 32 WSL) This cartridge fired a 165 gr bullet at 1400 fps.

Next was the 35 WSL which was very close to a rimless 38 special cartridge and I use 38 special case with the rim turned-down and a extractor groove cut to make these cartridges. A 180 gr bullet at 1450 fps was used.

In 1907 Winchester introduced the larger Model 1907 chambering the 351 WSL cartridge. Often used by Police Depts and shipped to France during WW1. France were produced their own 351 cartridges with a French headstamp. Winchester did make a full auto model in 1918 too. The 351 used a 180 gr bullet at 1850 fps

Last was the Model 1910 chambered for the 401 WSL cartridge, this was much better for game at close range in the woods. It fired a 250gr bullet at 1870 fps.

Some years ago, I bought a three digit serial numbered 1905 in 35 WSL and really enjoy shooting a semi auto rifle manufactured in 1905, it works fine without any problems and well made