They shot Trump

[painter777]

My understanding from the take away when the members of congress visited the grounds is the 2 story with the upper windows is just to the left of where GUNMAN is marked. 2 local LEO's were stationed at 2 upper windows but were called out to look for Crooks early on when a 'Suspicious Person Search' was being carried out.

Also noted by the members is that no one was assigned to the water tower.

[jond41403]

---------- Post added at 10:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 PM ----------

Anybody else reminded of the"who's on first"skit?

[Bob Womack]

All right, gentlemen. Drop it and go on. We want to keep our discussions civil and not get into personal fights.

Bob

[Aragorn243]

I heard some of the Congressmen's views after their visit to the site but have not seen any of their videos yet. All who spoke said the one big glaring issue as they entered the property was the overwhelming presence of the water tower which was completely unmanned.

One conducted his own experiments shooting with an AR-15 at the same distance and similar conditions and had a positive hit on 15 of 16 shots with the 16th hitting in the ear. I'm not going to go into this that much because I'm a shooter, consider myself a good shot but a head shot over 100 yards isn't going to be as simple as everyone makes it out to be. Prone helps considerably but being pressured by the police which we now know were there in the very moment before he took the shot makes it difficult. Had he been wise, he would have taken a body shot. I've killed a lot of deer over the years but I don't shoot them in the head and the vast majority of them were within 75 yards and I'm using a scope and true high-power rifle. They move, Trump moved, targets don't move. Under existing conditions, I'd say it's a 50/50 chance.

One of the fellows was 70 years old and had no trouble climbing a ladder and walking on the roof, although with all the photos and videos of people on that roof we can stop talking about it being hazardous.

[jond41403]

I heard some of the Congressmen's views after their visit to the site but have not seen any of their videos yet. All who spoke said the one big glaring issue as they entered the property was the overwhelming presence of the water tower which was completely unmanned.

One conducted his own experiments shooting with an AR-15 at the same distance and similar conditions and had a positive hit on 15 of 16 shots with the 16th hitting in the ear. I'm not going to go into this that much because I'm a shooter, consider myself a good shot but a head shot over 100 yards isn't going to be as simple as everyone makes it out to be. Prone helps considerably but being pressured by the police which we now know were there in the very moment before he took the shot makes it difficult. Had he been wise, he would have taken a body shot. I've killed a lot of deer over the years but I don't shoot them in the head and the vast majority of them were within 75 yards and I'm using a scope and true high-power rifle. They move, Trump moved, targets don't move. Under existing conditions, I'd say it's a 50/50 chance.

One of the fellows was 70 years old and had no trouble climbing a ladder and walking on the roof, although with all the photos and videos of people on that roof we can stop talking about it being hazardous.

I agree about the shot not being as simple as we have commented because like you say a moving target is completely different than a paper target. Not to mention the wind which I don't know if it was windy that day or not but at 140 yards, the wind certainly can affect things

[CINDERS]

I'd say it's a 50/50 chance.

I'd say the teams would have had all the DOPE worked out prior to the rally being held there the only considerations on the day would have been ambient temp, wind, mirage, barometric pressure.
As far as targets moving one would assume if the shooter was still slinging lead they would be fairly stationary, if the agents were using 300 Win mags the flight time for the distance they were firing over would be in the realms of .25 of a second or less so would negate any great movement of the targets head.
Either way thankfully Trump survived and the would be assassin paid the only price he deserved.

Our cat likes my APRS Rem-700 as well tried to catch a lift in the gun case for a range day, I don't think so Mr Biscuits.....!

[ssgross]

I don't understand the "moving target" comments. I've watched the video too many times to count now.

Start the clock...
TRUMP: "That's a little bit old now...that chart......"

7.5 seconds after the word "That's" in the sentence above, the first shot rings out. Likely longer. The video I just pulled up now starts at the sentence above.

Was the shooter nervous? sure. Because of what, cops, adrenaline? who cares - irrelevant. Being a good shot is more than just fundamentals of a shooting position, sight picture, etc. It's also about staying relatively calm under pressure. He likely had not developed that skill, and Trump is alive because of it.
So his mistake was either
a) going for the head shot when he had a perfect, stationary, center-of-mass to aim at. (I have not seen the optics/site on the rifle used yet.) or
b) he really was a poor shot, all things considered.

Even with a head shot and the target bobbing around, I don't think his head was moving enough to completely clear the sight picture at that distance, borderline with irons, certainly not with any magnification. I completely understand rushing and missing shots 2-8, but not so much the first one. This puts him in (b) above, likely with (a) compounding.

[jond41403]

I don't understand the "moving target" comments. I've watched the video too many times to count now.

Start the clock...
TRUMP: "That's a little bit old now...that chart......"

7.5 seconds after the word "That's" in the sentence above, the first shot rings out. Likely longer. The video I just pulled up now starts at the sentence above.

Was the shooter nervous? sure. Because of what, cops, adrenaline? who cares - irrelevant. Being a good shot is more than just fundamentals of a shooting position, sight picture, etc. It's also about staying relatively calm under pressure. He likely had not developed that skill, and Trump is alive because of it.
So his mistake was either
a) going for the head shot when he had a perfect, stationary, center-of-mass to aim at. (I have not seen the optics/site on the rifle used yet.) or
b) he really was a poor shot, all things considered.

Even with a head shot and the target bobbing around, I don't think his head was moving enough to completely clear the sight picture at that distance, borderline with irons, certainly not with any magnification. I completely understand rushing and missing shots 2-8, but not so much the first one. This puts him in (b) above, likely with (a) compounding.

I think just mainly his head was moving. I recently saw a computer generated recreation of when the bullets were fired and how Trump moved his head at the same time. I wish I knew where I saw that because it wasn't on YouTube I've already checked My history. The illustration I saw if correct, shows he turned his head at the moment of the first shot and tilted it just a hair allowing the bullet to go through his ear. The same simulation showed that if Trump had not turned his head and tilted it at that exact moment, it would have went somewhere near the temple area or above his right eye in the forehead. So in reality the shooter wasn't a totally bad shot, I think it was just a combination of things like Charlie mentioned where the cop right before the shooting probably made the shooter rush his first shot not knowing when the police were going to be climbing up after him. But one would think that the shooter should have known he at least had time to carefully aim the first shot and then maybe have to rush the rest of the shots. If the local police were supposed to be on top of that building and truly left because it was too hot, then that hot roof might have played a role too in him missing

[painter777]

FBI Director testified that Crooks had purchased a 5 foot ladder prior to the rally but it was not found at the scene. His current thoughts were after Crooks played cat and mouse during the 'Suspicious Person' chase was that Crooks shimmied up a electrical conduit then on to the short roof then on to the main roof. Same roof he shot from and same roof he was filmed on by rally attendees that were calling out his position. Next was the 2 local LEO's with 1 being hoisted up and spotting Crooks who turned and pointed his rifle at the LEO who dropped to the ground. Crooks shimmied to the roof's ridge where he likely seen the 2 - 2 man Sniper teams. Then while out of breath, his heart racing and hearing the rally attendees shouting at him from the ground proceeded to take the 8 shots @ Trump from 130 yards away. All the while knowing he was going to be shot back at. Was this Death by Cop? Was he on Dope? IDK.

All ask how could he not get a head shot?? Or why not go for center mass?

Crooks had likely done his homework and knew that Trump has worn a bulletproof vest on the campaign trail since March 2016 after his rallies grew increasingly violent. At one campaign stop in Ohio, Secret Service agents swarmed the candidate as one protester tried to make his way onto the stage where Trump was speaking. Trump told a reporter from New York Magazine: “has added to his discomfort on the stump, leaving him sweaty and spent after events.”

Shooting Man vs Shooting Paper
Whole different mind set here. With all the running around and the encircling pressure coming down on Crooks he was either lucky to be as accurate as he was or better skilled than being given credit for.

The Term Buck Fever
Heard of it? I've had guys hunt my property that could shoot good groups on paper all day. But come Deer season when a nice Buck shows itself and that guy catches a glimpse of those antlers they couldn't hit the side of the barn. I've found many a Deer on the back 120 weeks later that suffered from 'Hail Mary' shots. Or seen Deer go by with a arrow in it's rear quarter.

This picture is from a early spring round up of dead Deer shot by guys that I let hunt who had the Fever

[jond41403]

Hey Charlie, have you heard anything about how he got the rifle onto that roof without being seen? Or was he seen beforehand with a rifle before getting on the roof? I'm just wondering how that rifle got up there. At first he was only seen with a rangefinder, where was the rifle at this point in time? I'm curious to find out these answers in the coming weeks hopefully. I'm also curious to know how far away his car was parked from the building he scaled to the roof