Trying to date an early 1911...

[Rob Greer]

I FINALLY got the last picture(s) uploaded... sorry for the delay! Here is the receiver, and a close-up as well.

[Johnny Peppers]

I can't see an acceptance mark on the left side of the receiver, which would be correct for the replacement receivers.
The finish on both slide and receiver appear original, so both parts were as new when assembled at Springfield. Nice pistol.

[Johnny Peppers]

Forgot to ask, but what barrel does your pistol have?

[Rob Greer]

To be honest, I'm not sure. I need to go take another look. I'll take a couple pics of that, too.

[Rob Greer]

The barrel looks to me to be a standard barrel. "P" and "H" marked in the proper orientation for this serial range. Here are a few pictures of it. There is a "5" stamped in 2 places... on the bottom of the barrel, and on the left lug.

Top of barrel...


Bottom...


Left lug...


Right lug...

[Scott Gahimer]

I'm pretty confident there were some spare comm/mil trnasferred slides that may have been shipped to SA for use with assembling pistols and for rebuilding pistols during or after WWI. Chuck Clawson has one of the comm/mil slides that looks like it has never been installed on a frame.

The pistol looks great and while it is impossible to verify with photos, I'd say the chances are good it is original. But...what barrel is in the pistol? Any info on all the small parts might be helpful, too.

Thanks for posting the photos. They were worth waiting on.

[Rob Greer]

Thanks Scott! The barrel pictured is all the same barrel and is the one in the pistol. I'm in the middle of moving, but I will dig out Clawson's book when I can get to it. (Is it pictured / described in his book?) I am not very excited about pulling this piece apart further to detail the smaller parts...

[Johnny Peppers]

Not the barrel I would have expected to see in the pistol. It must be remembered that the parts sent to Springfield were to be used as replacement parts as needed rather than for Springfield to assemble the parts into pistols. Following WWI Springfield did assemble the left over parts into pistols as 1911 production at Colt ceased in 1919.
In Clawson's big book he notes that Springfield Armory assembled 400 pistols from new components before March 2, 1921, and 589 pistols after that date.

[Scott Gahimer]

Agreed. The vertical H & P Colt barrels were used at Colt's up to about 425,000 +/- in 1918.

If this pistol was assembled by that time at Colt's, then that barrel would make sense. But if this pistol had been assembled at Colt's, it would have a final inspector's mark on it.

Because it does not have a final inspector mark, that indicates the frame was shipped loose, not as an assembled pistol.

Colt's produced and shipped about 225,000 pistols between the time the vertical H & P barrels were used and the later intertwined HP was used. I do not think it is very likely a new vertical H&P survived to be shipped to SA for new pistol assembly post-WWI.

Most of the comm/mil slides used on M1911 pistols at Colt's appear in the mid-3xx,xxx range in mid-1918. A vertical H & P would be correct in those pistols. But I can't imagine slides and barrels being transferred from Colt's to SA during WWI. That's the whole reason the slides were transferred from commercial to military use in the first place...Colt's needed them to complete pistols for WWI.

If your pistol was pieced together post-WWI at SA, as I suspect it was, I'd expect a between-the-wars SA barrel to go into pistols built from NOS parts.
I've seen a few of those pistols Johnny refers to as being discussed in Clawson's big book. In fact, I own one Mr. Clawson identified as most likely built from NOS parts at SA post-WWI.

My pistol is Colt replacement frame No. 212387 (with no final inspection mark). It is original finish and has an original finish A.J. Savage slide that matches and has a between-the-wars SA barrel in it. That pistol is not pristine, but appears to be original, with matching wear patterns on all the parts including the slide, barrel and frame.

The only reason I think you need to look at small parts in a field strip is to determine what you have...all Colt or some SA, or ????...in order to give us more to go on. Your pistol looks nice. I agree; it would be nice to know more about it's origin.

I think we're right back where we were when johnny stated your pistol was likely pieced together in a rebuild post-WWI. Your entire top end possibly came from a pistol completed and shipped with a final inspection from Colt's mid-1918. What happened to the lower from that pistol? Who knows. But the top end was mated with a replacement frame. This might have happened at SA, or another arsenal...but I suppose anyone could have mated like-condition parts together over the years.

Regardless, it's a neat pistol.

[Rob Greer]

I have gone through the pistol pretty well now... it appears to me that all parts have similar wear patterns on them. So, I believe these parts have been together for a long time.

There are some interesting marks on the bottom of the slide...at the rear is a "G" which appears to be on top of an "S".



I am also including a couple pics of the easily accessible small parts.





Sorry for the pictures... the color is off...