M1903s on Range in WWI

[Jim Tarleton]

Upon arrival in France, the Marines were issued non-rim-rolled mild steel Type A British helmets with flattened dome or non-rim-rolled manganese steel Type B British helmets with full dome. Both were reputed to be highly reflective. This is a picture of some British soldiers wearing them. Sure looks the same to me, and explains why some of the Marine's tin hats look "flattened" and some don't. They had both.

The M1917 Helmets (American made) weren't available until after January 1917, after both Marine Regiments were in country for several months.

According to one source, only the 2nd (Indianhead) Division (5th & 6th Marine Regments included) and the 36th (Texas) Division were issued these particular Brodies from surplus British inventory, while British troops were using the non-reflective Pattern 1916 Mk 1.

Interesting. Both pictures (Mess and Through the Wheat) were obviously (or most probably) taken in France, and are probably both authenticate.

Jim

Information

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[Jim Tarleton]

Nuts! That was suppossed to be January 1918!

Jim

[John Beard]

I forgot to add. All the Marines in the picture are wearing campaign hats. The campaign hat of the Marine jokingly wearing the helmet (that's why he's smiling into the camera) is lying on the ground just below his right elbow.

J.B.

[Jim Tarleton]

I forgot to add. All the Marines in the picture are wearing campaign hats. The campaign hat of the Marine jokingly wearing the helmet (that's why he's smiling into the camera) is lying on the ground just below his right elbow.

J.B.

I see no Army uniforms in this picture, and all are not wearing campaign hats. Look closely at the shoulders - no shoulder strap that would be present on an Army uniform. The Marine on the front far left appears to be wearing the issued cap (for lack of the correct terminology) they wore under their helmets, or has some weird hair. Considering the Marines fought with the 2nd Engineers, I wouldn't be surprised to see a "soldier", but I don't see one.

Jim

[Bolo Badge]

I have almost no knowledge regarding WWI helmets but I would be willing to bet that the Supply Sergeant had trouble finding one big enough for the Marine in the right background. Without doubt he is head and shoulders above the crowd. If I got to choose who I followed into battle he would be it.

[John Beard]

I see no Army uniforms in this picture, and all are not wearing campaign hats. Look closely at the shoulders - no shoulder strap that would be present on an Army uniform. The Marine on the front far left appears to be wearing the issued cap (for lack of the correct terminology) they wore under their helmets, or has some weird hair. Considering the Marines fought with the 2nd Engineers, I wouldn't be surprised to see a "soldier", but I don't see one.

Jim

You perhaps may be right.

There are two distinct groups of men in the picture. One group is wearing dark uniforms and helmets (which I assumed were Army uniforms). The other group is wearing khakis and campaign hats.

The man on the far left foreground is bare headed. The grinning Marine in the center has pilfered his helmet. The grinning Marine's campaign hat is lying on the ground just below his right elbow.

I have a high-resolution version of the complete stereo picture.

J.B.

[Jim Tarleton]

There are three of those tall dudes. Middle background and far left guy in background, all head and shoulders taller than the rest.

The 5th and 6th Marines enlisted men were by majority (>60%) college graduates, including 300 Univ. of Minnesota graduates who joined in mass (got to be a memorial on that campus somewhere). There were numerous world class athletes in the 5th and 6th Marines, including one major league baseball player and a "professional" football player. They were the best educated Regiments in WWI prior to 6 June 1918, when a host of them died, including Lt. Crowther, a world class athlete, who died within 15 minutes of the start of the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines assault through wheat fields on Hill 142. Within 45 minutes, over 40% of his 67th Company were dead, with most of the rest wounded, and the 1st Battalion, 5th Marines was just a ghost of its former self. The 67th Company "Top" Hunter would make it over Hill 142, only to be killed while digging it the remainder of his troops by walking back and forth in front of them under intense machinegun fire.

"Top" Hunter had been ordered to halt his assault on Torcy by Lt. Cates, who would later become a legend in his own right. "Top" Hunter was hit twice and still continued to walk erect, armed only with a 45, a cane, and a whistle, encouraging his Marines to dig in before he was finally shot through the head and killed. Had Cates not stopped Hunter, Hunter might have survived. This was at daybreak, before the infamous Major Berry's 2nd Battalion and 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment assault on Belleau Woods proper through the other wheat fields, and Major Sibley's 6th Marine assault on the Southern edge of Belleau Woods and Boresches.

Major Sibley (heck of a football player in his college days despite his small size) would become a legend in the Corps for his continuous fighting at the front lines with his men. Although Major Sibley remained on the front lines for weeks, he was never so much as scratched as hundreds of Marines and a couple of thousand Germans were killed within a hundred yards of him on all sides. It was said that no Runner wanted to deliver a message to Major Sibley due to his location, and most of his own men were behind him, and numerous Runners died trying to reach him. Of such are legends made, yet I'll wager not a single high school student in America has a clue who this man was or what he accomplished.

Ahh, but I digress too much.

Semper Fi,
Jim

[Jim Tarleton]

In all the pictures I have seen of Marines in the AEF (and Nicaragua), there is that same odd mixture of dark and light colored utilities, with some appearing to be everything from dead white to dark green. I have always assumed it was due to fading from age, since what one Marine wears, they all wear, and you wear it until it wears out or becomes unserviceable.

In the Marines, you have to pay for your uniforms, which was a real shock to me when I was in boot camp. You go all the way through boot camp and wind up with almost zip dollars. You lose something they issue you, you will pay for it. I had to pay for an M-16 in RVN because my M-16 serial number didn't match my issue rifle (because it wasn't my issued rifle) when I turned it in. That is why I look at the Sgt. York rifle argument with a jaundiced eye.

In WWI, the Muster Rolls show Court Martials for dirty rifles, and people don't think they would be a little upset if you had the wrong rifle? Maybe not in the heat of combat with a pick-up rifle, but during general inspections you would stand out like a bald cat in a dog show.

I have that same high resolution photo from Keystone. I tracked it down when I discovered it existed. That was how I was able to see the knobs on the scope, which to me has eliminated all doubt that Niedner type USMC sniper rifles were used in France. I have one other photo taken during Belleau Woods that shows a Niedner type sniper rifle also. I also know someone that appears to own a 6th Regiment sniper rifle identified to a 6th Regiment sniper, and it is a Niedner rifle (I would prefer a 5th Regiment rifle). Don't believe everything you read in current texts about those sniper rifles and their "limited" use in WWI. The authors are seriously mistaken.

It took me some doing, and two days of trying, to get that stereoscope picture reduced in pixel size enough to post it. I can clearly see the campaign hat to which you refer. I suspect the man on the left is the sniper, as the pictures I have of snipers show that same arrangement of cartridge holders on their belts (I don't know the official name of the contraption), but maybe they all wore the same arrangement.

By the way, you can see both Brodie Type A and Type B helmets in that picture. The smiling Marine is wearing a Type A and the Marine to his left is wearing a Type B. Ditto for Marines in the background.

Jim

[Lancebear]

Hey Jim,

Think that you are right about the man on the left being the sniper. He is within arms reach of the rifle. Sure that snipers were drilled extra hard about not losing their rifles. This is my rifle, there are NOT many like it and it is my a$% if it gets lost or stolen.

He appears to be the only man in the photo wearing full gear. As in just coming off the line or prepared to go back fast if called upon.

Death to the Hun,

Robert

[steved409]

Only diff between Brit B helmet and US M1917 is the method of attaching the chin strap bales; US used solid rivet and the Brits used a split rivet. Later Brit helmets added a rubber 'doughnut', sort of a shock absorbsion item. First 500K helmets used by US were Brit made.

SteveD