Essay on British army new sniper rifle ....

[Mk VII]

Why fire just one shot when you can call the Air Force and totally vaporize the target.

Because the air force buggers off somewhere else just when you need them?
Our lot at the CIMIC House siege had air assets to direct on target exactly once.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Surpmil]

News story out today - a rather bizarre twist to the new 'sharpshooter' rifles for the army:

Ministry of Defence orders 'Bible guns' for soldiers in Afghanistan - Telegraph

Edit - apologies linked to the wrong one - new link above

I would have thought Luke 22:36 and Matthew 10:44 might have been more appropriate!

[gunner]

Hi Ed,

for the same reason that an surgeon operated an bad ulcer and do not amputate the whole leg.

Regards

Gunner

[Peter Laidler]

I have mentioned this before but the last No4T rifles I saw in general issue to units, in unit armouries, was in about 1978. That's what I saw but no doubt a few 'lost souls' were probably in armouries for longer. These were replaced on a rotating basis and formed the, very probably, bulk of the last 1981 L42 conversion programme. I know this because while the rifles were back-loaded to Ordnance, the CES, including the cleaning kit, cleaning stick and rifle cover, extra compass, good quality wristwatch and binos were retained at the unit as did the captain pugwash Scout Reg telescope. These were then added to the L42 kits as they arrived. As a result of this what we call 'admin' or 'accounting' errors when some L42's arrived complete, some lucky souls like me found themselves the lucky owners of a captain pugwash telescope and a pair of good No2 binoculars which they still have. That's the reason why some of the L42 CES's still held a short No4 rifle cover instead of the longer extended one. I'd say most definately that the last time the No4T was used in action with the UK forces was with the Devon and Dorset Regiment in Northern Ireland inthe early 70's. Thereafter it was L42's, certainly by 1973/4. There were a stack of No4T's in Ordnance for some years and they'd be sent out to specialised workshops for overhaul/maintenance but I suspect that these were too late for the conversion programme. I have the confirmed date after which there were no No4T rifles left in Ordnance but I'll have to look

There

[Ngib]

In seventy two we had a couple of Small Arm Schools guys on ops. They were designated to run the course for the army. Their course started with the L42. The Royal Marines ran the last 303 course around 68. The last army sniper course with the No 4 was pre-SLR days. In fact the last training pamphlet was dated 1957. With the Devon and Dorset regiment they had their depot in Exeter a few miles from the Royal Marines Training center. A few came on the Marine courses after the Marines put the sniping concept to use in NI. This Devons training was arranged by a former Marine who had transferred and was commissioned into the D&D. meaning it was semi-official? They used the L42.
With the L42 the weapons were made from No.4 Mk1 (T) however they were first sold by the MOD to a private company owned by an ex-officer who resold them to Enfield. The Bulk of the no4 had been backlogged years before and up until 70 there were sixty available for operations.
However by this time the whole concept of sniping was changing and heading in two directions and leaving behind WW2 tactics. The field concept had also changed to deal with insurgencies. The other was for major incident CT. Not to be confused with NI or police duties. This came about after the Munich Olympics and the need for a dedicated national CT team.

[Peter Laidler]

Let me get this right............. only 60 No4T's in the Ord system prior to the L42 conversion programme? Where in heavens name did this fairyland figure arrive from? Are you sure that there hasn't been a 0 left off the end? There were at least sixty PLUS in the Far East theatre Strategic Stores reserve in Singapore alone!

I'm afraid that whoever told you that these rifles were first sold off then purchased back by Enfield (Enfield don't buy anything back. At that time it was owned by the Government and run by the MoS or had just changed to the another MoD department/procurement directorate?) is also wrong. If a private buyer had them in the meantime, hoping to make a killing, why are they lacking in commercial proofs prior to resale.

Did the same thing happen to the very similar Bren to L4 programme? No, it was done on a rolling/rotating basis.

There was a .303" No4Tsniper course being run at Warminster that was held back slightly for the sole purpose of course testing the FIRST batch of production L42's and this course was overseen by an ex RM/SASC Warrant Officer who died recently and his ashes were scattered over Salisbury Plain. These rifles were needed urgently and were actually picked up from Enfield and went directly to the course. We have the written record of this transaction together with the rifle numbers. One of the snipers who qualified on that course with a No4T then did the last part again, this time with the L42's is still in contact with us here

[Ngib]

After Aden I was in Singapore in 69. There was no army requirement during this time and Army sniper training anywhere nor were 303 in use in Singapore.
During this period the only course was hosted by the Marines in Devon and catered for SAS and Marines. In the Marines there were eight per unit. Plus a number held for training. SAS had sixteen.
There was about twelve trainees on the course and two courses a year. Most people pre – Ireland who attended the course never used the weapon operationally. It seems the main aim of the course was to improve soldiering skills for potential JNCO’s.
You have to remember no one in the Army was interested in sniping until after Aden when Crater Pass saved the skill. After Aden the bids went out to a number of companies for a replacement in limited numbers for the Marines. The weapon that won the bid was a heavy barrel conversion. It was picked because there was not a great deal of retraining needed and it was cheap.
In Aden after the police revolt there were three operational shooters. In Ireland when they were first used in 72 there were two.
It was not until 74-76 by then most infantry units had L42 and attended an Army course as opposed to a Marine course that the Army were back on line.
As for the Far East theatre Strategic Stores- In 1967 the plan was to withdraw from Singapore the deadline was 1971. During this time Nee Soon and Simbawang was the consolidation area also the navy base. Stores were leaving quick. Also the AR15 had come into play during the Borneo stint a few years earlier and the 303 was long gone
Also two units from the Marines based in Singapore came out to Aden in 67 to cover the withdrawal. The Marines from these units did not have any Sniper teams as they held no weapons in the Singapore theatre.