US model 1917 questions from newbie

[Mark 2]

Hello All,

I tried posting some questions regarding this rifle on the 1917 forum but got no response. I'll try to keep this as short as possible. This is my first military rifle. I've owned/collected older 22's and S&W's for some time. I bought this from my step daughter who needed the money. Story is that her grandfather bought it in 1940 from a mail order company for $17.00 and came as shown. It's in near excellent overall condition but is a "mixmaster" as follows: Winchester receiver (#105277), barrel (marked W and 12-17) and front sight. Eddystone bolt, bolt release and rear sight and Remington buttplate and floorplate. The stock is unmarked on the outside but appears un-refinished with only a few dings and no repairs. I haven't separated the stock from the action so I don't know about markings inside. There is a 5 point star in a circle on the left side of the receiver that, from a post on the '17 forum, seems to indicate that as an early gun it wasn't suitable for interchangeability but this one sure was!

So I guess here's my questions: The serial number on the receiver and the date on the barrel seem to indicate that the receiver/barrel are original. Would that be correct? Any idea what gives with the stock? Did someone just chuck out the hand guard and forestock? The parkerized barrel shows signs of a front band having been on there. Maybe this was an early attempt at "sporterizing" the rifle? On the other hand the band that is on there comes in contact with the barrel. Didn't original '17 rear bands go OVER the hand guard and NOT make contact with the barrel? Maybe this band is not original to a '17? I never held a '17 before this one so am in the dark on this.

The bore is near perfect and the trigger breaks clean so the plan is to shoot it the next opportunity on the July 4 holiday. If this shoots well I believe that I will keep it. I never got into military rifles as I always thought them clunky looking but this thing comes up to a perfect sight picture and really feels like a good "fit". It doesn't feel clunky at all.....

I would be grateful for any help on this, Dave

Information

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[cquickel]

Looks like a sporterized mixmaster to me, but appears to have all the elements to restore to its former military configuration. Try ebay or Springfield Sporters for parts. Fun project for an early M1917. Restored probably worth $600-$700. Sporterized maybe $250-$300 best.

[Alfred]

If the rifle doesn't shoot well at first remove that barrel band and try again.

A barrel band that contacts the barrel will usually be detremental to accuracy of most bolt action rifles not designed to have one like that.

Remington Model 30 rifles with a barrel band were found to be less accurate than those without it.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I agree 100% with Alfred. The barrel band looks like it was cut off the back end of the M1917 nosecap, so the converter didn't actually use "foreign" parts, just carved up what he had.

Even the sling is a type 1907, and a correct option for this rifle. Just get someone to show you how to set it up properly, and you will find it can be used as, in effect, a one-point sling.

A pity the rifle got carved up, but the Americans have only themselves to blame, for rubbishing anything that was not Springfield for so long.

I got a complete set of M1917 wood + buttplate + barrel ring+ nosecap for 60 euros over here. Living where you do, your chances must be better.

That looks like a potentially good rifle. Good luck with the spare parts!

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

Hello again Mark 2. I just looked at the M1917 forum. Seems your post only appeared today, so I think your comment "I tried posting some questions regarding this rifle on the 1917 forum but got no response." was a bit premature. Some of us need time to eat y'know!

I forgot to say, you obviously need, in order of priority, 1) "The Pattern 1914 and US Model 1917 Rifles" by Charles Stratton, ISBN 1-882391-29-2, for details on all the bits, so you know what to get and how they fit together, and 2) "United States Rifle Model of 1917" by C.S. Ferris, ISBN1-888722-14-2, for historical information and munfacturing insights.

Patrick

[Mark 2]

I thank you all, especially Patrick, for your replies. The news is much worse than expected but better to get it than think it's a jewel in the rough. Even worse than it being modified is the likely poor shooting expected due to the barrel band contacting the barrel itself. I will follow your advise and shoot it as is and then remove the band to see if any grouping improvement follows. If so then I may consider restoration. The trouble with that being that there is no way that I will be able to restore it for what it's worth. This whole thing just shows to go ya that you need to know what you're buying before you buy it! I may just lick my wounds, tuck my tail betwixt my legs and limp away........

Thanks again, Dave

[bearhunter]

Mark2, I don't agree with your last comment. That rifle is an easy restoration project. The only real problem, seeing as you're a newbie is the front sight removal to install the rear hand guard retaining ring. They can be very difficult to remove after 90+ years.
That sling, if it is an orignal 1907 has a fair bit of value as well and with a little TLC can be brought back to VG condition.
SARCO or Numirich will have all of the proper parts you need for a refit.

I suspect, your funds are limited. If that's the case, you may have to wait for a while to restore the rifle. The nice thing about M1917 rifles is the only serial number on the rifle is on the receiver.

As far as accuracy goes, I recently put one together that wouldn't shoot well at all before it was restocked. After restocking, everything changed. It would shoot surplus M2 ammo into 4 inches consistantly, rather than the 12 inch groups previously and into 2 inches with hand loads. That's not bad for a rifle that was meant for 4 inch groups with issue ammo.

Some M1917 rifles will shoot like lasers, most won't. They will almost always shoot well though. Remember, with the bullets available when the rifle was built, 4 inch groups were considered pretty good. Especially with milspec ammo. From what I understand, milspec ammo during the early stages of WWI were higher than civilian spec.

[Mark 2]

Bearhunter,

Thanks for your comments. Regarding the sling how do you identify if it's a 1907? I've removed it and find no markings on it whatsoever. Why is a 1907 a correct option for the 1917? Does the "1907" refer to a gun that the sling was originally issued with or the date of manufacture of that design of sling? How do you restore a sling or as you say "use some TLC to bring it back to VG condition"? What do you mean (money-wise) when you say it has a "fair value" if it's indeed a 1907? Do you see why I never got interested in military guns? They generate too many questions...........

Regarding removing the front sight. Whoever put that modified band on there probably did it "only" 50 or 60 years ago so the front sight has been off since the gun was made. To remove the front sight does one drift out the small pin and then tap the sight off the barrel? Is the pin a taper pin and if so which direction do you go to remove it. I'm guessing that some Aerokroil would help in the process. Further there's zero rust on the gun.

Can you give me an idea of what I might expect to pay for the parts needed to bring this back to life? Again, how it shoots will determine if I proceed. The ammo I'll use is the cheapest 30-06 I could find: Rem Core-Lokt 180 gr. so I guess that I can safely HOPE for 4" at 100 yds.

I see that you're from Okanogan, BC. I have a summer place in the Okanogan highlands near Republic, WA (love the name of that town). Beautiful country it is.

Thank you again, Dave

[Patrick Chadwick]

Dave, I think you're being a bit unecessarily pessimistic. 1907 sling merely means the sling type is from that date. Not restricted to one type of rifle - you can use it on Springfields, Garand, P14s M1917s, Enfields... easily the best service sling ever, which is why it was used for all those rifle types by those who were unsatisfied with the standard issue sling.

As to "restoring" the sling, that is a sightly exaggerated word, this is not archaeology or museum work. Lanolin or saddle soap will do the job - do you know anyone who has horses? Just rub the stuff into the leather to keep it supple.

As to the barrel band. Taking it off would mean you lose the sling support. But is loos like it is held by a pin through the stock. So take it off and grind it out on the inside until it is clear of the barrel when you re-attach it. Then you can try out the rifle with a free barrel and still have the sling support. Or simply remove band and sling and try shooting off a sandsack. Either way, it is important that the barrel is NOT binding on the wood at one side, as this causes groups that wander as the rifle heats up. And the missing bits should cost you way under $100, so get those books and get going!

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

P.S. The best general advice I can give is: get in touch with someone who already shoots an M1917. This person can then show you exactly what you need, how it is assembled, and will probablyl have ammo that is matched to the M1917 to give your rifle a good testing.

Patrick