History Channel: Snipers

[tmark]

I saw on History Channel a show about Snipers. They described the history of sniping from the Revolutionary War to the present. They showed several archive clips from WWI and WWII but the clips were fast so I couldn't get a great stare at any one rifle for an appreciable amount of time.

1. They showed a pic of the Springfield 1903 with a scope but the front sight blade was still intact on this rifle. I know the 1903A4s of WWII had no front sight blade. Did the WWI snipers actually use scoped 1903s?

2. I thought I saw a pic of a M17 having a scope and so, used as a sniper rifle. Were scoped M17 rifles used as sniper weapon during WWI?

3. Now isn't this a conflict of interest: The history channel said Britain was hard up for rifles during WWI and proposed a deal with the Germans to supply the British with rifles (presumably Mausers) in exhange for rubber. The Germans declined the offer reasoning the deal would be counter-productive. Anyone pic up on that?

4. The show stated that during the Viet Nam war captured U.S. snipers as well as infantry soldiers were killed outright. The V.C. then did some disgusting mutilations to the U.S. bodies which are too graphic for me to mention.

5. The master snipers during WWII were the Russians, women as well as men.

6. JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald using an Italian military rifle considered to be inaccurate by U.S. standards.

I watch these shows repeatedly and always pic up on something new each time.

Did you know that during the Viet Nam war many soldiers carried modern-made tomahawks (see the show on Axes)? The tomahawks were used in a utilitarian role rather than as a weapon but the indigenous populace culture respected the "blade".

Thomas

Information

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[Lancebear]

tmark,

The "M1917" sniper you saw had to be a British P-14. They had P-14 scoped snipers. The rifles were made here in the USA, but the scope mods think were done in England by the best riflemakers.

There was a plan to make a sniper of our M1917 rifle, think two were made and the war ended before it was taken further. That's in Nick Ferris' book on the M1917 rifle I think.

Lancebear

[JGaynor]

It's true that some optical glass was imported from Germany to Britain during the course of WW1.

At one point there was some discussion about a trade of rubber for glass but that apparently never came off.

http://www.europa.com/~telscope/glass-ss.txt

Regards,

Jim

[Jim Tarleton]

I saw on History Channel a show about Snipers. They described the history of sniping from the Revolutionary War to the present. They showed several archive clips from WWI and WWII but the clips were fast so I couldn't get a great stare at any one rifle for an appreciable amount of time.

1. They showed a pic of the Springfield 1903 with a scope but the front sight blade was still intact on this rifle. I know the 1903A4s of WWII had no front sight blade. Did the WWI snipers actually use scoped 1903s?

2. I thought I saw a pic of a M17 having a scope and so, used as a sniper rifle. Were scoped M17 rifles used as sniper weapon during WWI?

3. Now isn't this a conflict of interest: The history channel said Britain was hard up for rifles during WWI and proposed a deal with the Germans to supply the British with rifles (presumably Mausers) in exhange for rubber. The Germans declined the offer reasoning the deal would be counter-productive. Anyone pic up on that?

4. The show stated that during the Viet Nam war captured U.S. snipers as well as infantry soldiers were killed outright. The V.C. then did some disgusting mutilations to the U.S. bodies which are too graphic for me to mention.

5. The master snipers during WWII were the Russians, women as well as men.

6. JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald using an Italian military rifle considered to be inaccurate by U.S. standards.

I watch these shows repeatedly and always pic up on something new each time.

Did you know that during the Viet Nam war many soldiers carried modern-made tomahawks (see the show on Axes)? The tomahawks were used in a utilitarian role rather than as a weapon but the indigenous populace culture respected the "blade".

Thomas

Tmark,

1. All WWI sniper variations of the 1903 Springfield retained both the rear and front sight, and all variations allowed the use of the open sights with scope removal.

2. The M1917 was used as a sniper rifle by the AEF, but without a scope. Some did have an improved rear sight. Its sister, the P14 equipped with the Winchester A5 scope, was the preferred British sniper rifle according to Haskell-Pritchart, who organized and ran the first dedicated British Sniping schools (see Sniping in France). American troops attended these schools, plus they had their own AEF sniping schools; 1st Army in particular. I know of at least one Marine from 2nd Division that attended the 1st Army sniping school.

3. Many deals were made during both wars that in hindsight seem insane, but were actually a good idea. We sold the Germans ball bearings during WWII (third party sale), after bombing the German ball bearing plants at Dresden. Those ball bearings fit their tank's drive line (Afrika Corps). Only problem was, our ball bearings had a single case hardened ball in each race, which caused the bearings to fail very rapidly.

4. Mutilation of bodies, and cruel manners of death to snipers was common on both sides of that war as well as the WWII Pacific Theater (Marine gold tooth collections). During WWI (and WWII to a much lesser extent) it was not an uncommon practice for Americans to shoot down surrendering enemy troops. Our submarines in the Pacific would torpedo Japanese ships and then machine gun the Japs in the water (merciful?). I saw a combat video on Military Channel of just such an action (the machine gunning of Japs in the water). In many books written about Belleau Wood (especially diaries), they discuss the killing of surrendering Germans. In Vietnam, when my unit took prisoners, the prisoner never made it to the rear lines. My Company Commander used to tell us, "You want to take the prisoner home, you sleep with him". No one I knew ever slept with a prisoner.

5. The Russians had great natural snipers as hunting was a way of life in the Russian interior, and the Russians had the killing grounds to train them. They did indeed use many women as snipers, and some were prolific killers. Ditto the Germans, who used women as machine gunners in WWI. I would wager there were many excellent snipers on all sides we never heard of due to their early demise.

6. Lee Harvey did indeed kill JFK with what we consider a substandard rifle. Oswald had two things going for him, one was the relative short distance to his slow moving target, and the second as that Oswald was a very good shot, regardless of what you may have read. He scored Sharpshooter on the Marine Qual course with an M1, which is no cakewalk (scorebook recently sold on eBay). I went to that book repository and looked out that window. I have no doubt I could have made that shot with no problems. I judged it to be about 60 yards laterally at a 45 degree angle at a straightaway target. I am surprised he missed.

7. I never saw anyone with a tomahawk in Vietnam ('70-'71), but I was only in I Corps. I did visit a lot of firebases as a part of my job. Saw a lot of the big Bowie knives and some single action Rugers, but not a single tomahawk. As far as the natives' fears, a tomahawk was the least of their problems.

I also watch Military Channel and Discovery. They both have some excellent programs, especially their combat photographer series.

Jim

[Lancebear]

Jim,

Have you seen the show I believe on The Military Channel about USMC war dogs? Great show with veteran input. Kept lookin' for '03's, think there were some somewhere.

Robert

[Jim Tarleton]

I saw that same program. I was looking for 03's myself. Didn't see one though. That was an interesting program. I didn't know the dogs were donated and the handlers knew the names of those who donated their dog.

Jim

[tmark]

Jim,

Thank you for addressing each statement/inquiry in my post to the extensive degree you did. I am equally appreciative to the contributions made by all other members of the forum.

Thomas

[Emri]

I saw that same program. I was looking for 03's myself. Didn't see one though. That was an interesting program. I didn't know the dogs were donated and the handlers knew the names of those who donated their dog.

Jim

this book if you enjoyed the subject. Written by the man ( Auburn Vet School grad.) who headed the program.


Amazon.com: Always Faithful: A Memoir of the Marine Dogs of WWII (9781574887198): William Putney: Books

They were all donated and most were detrained and returned to owners. The army just killed theirs after the war.

FWIW,

Emri

[Jim Tarleton]

Thanks, Emri. The RVN dogs were put down also. What a waste.

Jim