Savage No4 Mk1 how many?

[madcratebuilder]

Yesterday I ran across a sportered Enfield on a local for sale site and have arranged purchase. The seller sent me some additional photos and I seem to have bought a Savage No4 Mk1. Has the rear bolt release, round cocking piece, Mk 2 backsight and is dated 1942. It is missing the foresight protector, fore end assembly, hand guards and bands. It appears it well be an easy restoration.

My question is does anyone know how many of these where produced? This is the first one I have seen.

Anyone with Savage spares they would care to sell?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Amatikulu]

One of our members, Limpetmine conducted a survey on Savage made Lee Enfield Rifles and I'm cutting and pasting from the Gunboards Sticky the data he presented below:



0C1 - 1941 MKI lowest # 1941 date
0C2804 - 1941 MKI highest # 1941 date

0C3870 - 1942 MKI lowest # 1942 date
13C2752 - 1942 MKI highest MKI # 1942 date

13C2845 - 1942 MKI* lowest MKI* # 1942 date
36C1916 - 1942 MKI* highest MKI* # 1942 date

38C2632 - 1943 lowest MKI* # 1943 date
60C7797 - 1943 highest MKI* # 1943 date

51C7693 - no date lowest MKI* # with no date
0C63110 - no date highest MKI* # with no date

OC1 was converted to a sniper and is shown in Skennerton's book.

It appears that 3,000+ rifles were serial numbered in 1941 but according to Skennerton only 1,325 were completed (accepted?)

It appears that around 132,800 MKIs were made.

[madcratebuilder]

Not nearly as rare as I thought, and here I thought I struck gold. Well I'll cancel that Hawaiian vacation now.

[limpetmine]

As much as I'd like, the Savage serial number list is not mine. I'm doing the Long Branch survey, which is going well. Please continue to post your numbers!
/limpetmine

[Seaspriter]

Fortunately there is enough data in Owner’s Survey from an earlier post (limpetmine) on this thread to determine how to link Production Dates to Serial Numbers (within a month’s accuracy)
Here’s the Survey Data (from limpetmine):
0C1 - 1941 MKI lowest # 1941 date
0C2804 - 1941 MKI highest # 1941 date

0C3870 - 1942 MKI lowest # 1942 date
13C2752 - 1942 MKI highest MKI # 1942 date

13C2845 - 1942 MKI* lowest MKI* # 1942 date
36C1916 - 1942 MKI* highest MKI* # 1942 date

38C2632 - 1943 lowest MKI* # 1943 date
60C7797 - 1943 highest MKI* # 1943 date

51C7693 - no date lowest MKI* # with no date
0C63110 - no date highest MKI* # with no date

First, the Serial Number is the clue to the Production Volume.
For example, the serial number 96C1106 means the 961,106 gun off the production line.
This information above tells us that:

1941 ~ 2,800 units produced, beginning July 22, 1941
1942 ~380,000 units produced
1943 ~445,000 units produced
1944 ~220,000 units produced, ending June 22, 1944
Total Production ~1,028,903 units produced (from other sources)

Assuming 1942 was a ramp-up year, full production was attained by mid 1942, and continued at full production throughout 1943, and then dropped down in the last months of production May-June 1944, we can project these serial numbers connected to these APPROXIMATE dates:
Jan 42 0C3800
Feb 42 1C1500
Mar 42 2C5000
Apr 42 6C4500
May 42 10C0000
Jun 42 13C4500
Jul 42 17C1000
Aug 42 20C7500
Sep 42 24C4000
Oct 42 28C0500
Nov 42 31C7000
Dec 42 35C3500
Jan 43 39C0000
Feb 43 43C6500
Mar 43 46C6500
Apr 43 49C9500
May 43 53C6000
Jun 43 57C2500
Jul 43 60C9000
Aug 43 64C5500
Sept 43 68C2000
Oct 43 72C8500
Nov 43 76C5000
Dec 43 80C0000
Jan 44 84C5000
Feb 44 89C0000
Mar 44 93C5000
Apr 44 97C5000
May44 0C50000
Jun 44 0C63000

Remember these approximations for reference. The data was derived from extrapolation, not Savage Production Data (which seems to be missing). If anyone knows of better data, please share it with us on this forum. (I’m not a statistician, just used High School Math!)
Hope this helps shed some light on the serial number mystery.
Robert

[55recce]

i can up the ante on 1942 Savage with a No 4 mk 1 12C3659. DCRA seem to have got hold of it and converted it to 7.62. Has heavy target barrel, cut backforend, monte carlo stock etc. So it has had an interesting life.

[Alan de Enfield]

There was a thread running some months ago (on another forum) on this subject. ( I cannot find it at present)
Revelations were made that could throw previous production numbers into doubt.

There were photo's of Savage No4 Mk1's with prefix numbers in the '20s'and '30s' and later (way above the previously thought '13'.

There were Savage No4 Mk1* with prefix numbers in the 'single figure' (ie 7, 8, 9) - way below the previously thought numbers.

No answers - just questions

Did Savage have multiple production lines running that changed from Mk1 to Mk1* on a progressive basis ?
Did all of the manufactured actions get 'thrown in a huge rack and then numbered later ?
Was Savage stock control NOT on a first in-first out basis so 'old stock' could be lying about for months before it was bought out, numbered and used ?

Edit to add Link

There was even a recent thread running on this very forum, which identified a "5C" Mk1* and a "22C" Mk1

No4 mk1 or no4 mk* for Savage no4s. When was the changover please?

[Homer]

That would be mine I think. 1942 MkI 22C

[Peter Laidler]

I wrote about changes in production several times in relation to UK Bren and Sten production and to change a mass production line and a MULTIPLE mass production line at that is no simple 'switch-over' procedure, believe me! Sometimes, and for many reason's, even when it SEEMS economic, in FACT it's as economic to keep the old one up and running, using the skills and facilities you already have. Then bring in a new line to run alongside and then run down the old.

I learned some of this while at Uni during a period of work experience at the MG body pressing works at Stratton. Canada retained the expensive (in tooling and man-production capacity) contoured gas cylinder sleeve on Mk1 gun production throughout. They changed to the simplified Mk1A type gun with their Mk1m but retained the fluted gas cylinder because that feature was used as a method of production during other operations (I think it was as a multiple clamping medium for other machining operations) despite the UK telling them via the DGO telling them that the intricately shaped flutes were not necessary..........