A bit of an OT rant,... (long) ...

[Bodyman]

I have to vent just a little bit, guys. I'm sorry.

This is an item that was being sold by a buddy of mine (let us call him 'Tom').



Regardless of their contempt the self-important ostriches at ebay have for us, they are still a bit of a center for such sales. You can see the auction here;

http://cgi.ebay.com/Case-V-42-FSSF-K...item4ceede3646

It is an amazing item and what should be just about the pride of ANY WWII blade collection - a borderline museum piece with provenance and one of the holy grails of the area as I understand it. I don't care if you like it or hate it because I am just going to tell you a story. It seems that we have gotten so caught up in the search for these items that we have forgotten why we do this - it appears that the quest for the objects has often been overtaken by egos, jealousy, envy, and spite - and we have forgotten that a large part of the value of these items is that they represent a time and place when an entire generation selflessly gave to us, when 'uncommon valor was a common thing'.

More is the shame.

In this story, it took several years for my buddy, 'Tom', to finally get the last owner to part with this group of items and as sometimes happens in these convoluted deals, one of his 'friends' ended up with it in trade and without knowing or remembering that Tom was interested, he then turned around and gave it to my buddy to sell for him (kinda thick-headed but he really didn’t remember that Tom was interested) ... So the item for sale is not even his item, Tom is just selling it because he knows what it is, and the rest is just a bit of salt in the wound. Of course he would never say any of this but I really don't care and I thought you guys might like to know just a little of how screwy things can get (which you are probably already well aware) and just exactly where that can lead.

The piece is right as rain, missing its original scabbard but gorgeous (the box in which it was stored even said on it "scabbard stored elsewhere" though no one can find it). It is part of a grouping of items and has a great deal of provenance that comes with it, including the vet's jump wings, a Silver Star and the actual dog tags of the fella to whom this knife was first issued. His kid was a dope head so he gave everything to the neighbor directing it to be given to his kid if he ever got his head straight. The kid didn’t. The items themselves are quite amazing because the vet had served all over the world - from Kiska, to North Africa, Sicily and Italy and then D-Day in Normandy - I never knew one soldier would serve so broadly. It is a great, documented piece with provenance to a real person - an average Noble American of that time who went home and spent the rest of his life within sight of the house in which he was born. But Tom just wanted to sell it now.

Trying to sell it, however, has turned into a nightmare for him - he has been called every name in the book by potential bidders and threatened to be 'outted' for being a fraud among other things. Lowball offers, insults, nit-picking, more personal attacks - you name it they tried it. As is often true - this top end item brought out the kooks in spades, but an avid collector of several things, Tom has sold some top end items in other collecting areas before (for a hundred grand and more), but there was nothing like the behavior that he saw surrounding this knife. Initially, there were no other Case V-42’s for sale, and then suddenly there were several up for sale to compete with it - something he found odd but, ... whatever. Then the emails started - up to several dozen a night when he got home - and many were aggressive and with the name calling or insults to his questionable parentage. What at first was amusing became ever more intense and it finally seemed that someone was actually orchestrating a plan to undermine the item and/or the seller. One particularly aggressive emailer even gave an actual order to 'pull that auction' because the item was clearly a fake. Well, Tom knows it isn't, but the guy shouting orders went thru great lengths to explain that it was a fake because there was no pin thru the pommel (so excellent is the item that it could barely be seen under the finish and would not show in a photo).

Suddenly one night the auction was cancelled by eBay. The explanation that it is against ebay policy to sell Silver Stars and other such medals, yet there are many that sell just fine on ebay. Then it is noticed that there is another seller with a V-42 that goes to great lengths to point out his pommel pin and that any then in the text of the auction goes on to state that lacking the pin are fakes. Some of the language of the sale ad is stunningly similar to the unbelievable emails that Tom had gotten from the pommel pin guy - leaving him quite certain that they are one and the same person. Did that other seller get his auction pulled? Or was it one of the others that emailed IMMEDIATELY after the auction was pulled trying to buy the item for a pittance (more than a reproduction but hardly what it finally sold for). Dunno, it's just kinda cruddy.

For several weeks he just ignored the whole subject and tried to not fume about it all, but hoping to sell it still and thinking this might in fact be the holdup, Tom had to actually clean a bit of the original finish from the pommel just to get the pin to show in a picture ... how ridiculous is that (though 'pommel pin guy' got a nice ‘now STFU’ email when the item was relisted … obviously the most aggressive pseudo-expert didn’t know his arse from a hole in the ground … but that didn't stop him from kicking and screaming as much as he could muster ...).

Predictably, the shenanigans started again when Tom re-listed the item a second time - this time without the medals. Again there were none of them for sale, and when he put it up suddenly there were several again to compete - oddly, several were the very same ones that had appeared with his on the first go around (that Tom thought had already sold, ... go figure ...). Personally, I never thought a knife would have a coat-tail that other knives could ride on, but there it is ... I am sure there are more tricks to why this is done, but I just couldn’t care less any more.

The seller, Tom, is a good guy but when I spoke to him two days before the end of the auction he said he’d had enough. Initially, he thought he might end up with the item if it didn’t sell but by that time, he no longer had any interest in ever owning it - at all - at any price - ever. The piece is a scourge and after the wringer he’s been run thru he almost hates to even look at it any longer. Why buy something like that if this is what happens to you when you try to sell it! At that time, he felt so strongly that I absolutely guarantee you, if he got any more angry BS filled emails he was gonna lose it - he was angry enough that I know he would film himself melting this knife down as he reads all the emails and blames each of those guys for his actions, and then he would put the melted slug of metal back on ebay as a ’former case v-42 once owned by a Silver Star awardee‘, along with the video on you-tube so you could all cry over the destruction of something so fine. I kid you not - I have seen him do exactly such a thing and walk away wiping his hands.

It is because some of you guys are absolutely insane - yes, even some of you reading this - and your over the top behavior is so ridiculous that this is what it evokes in people. I understand going after the fakers, but NOBODY wants to deal with that. There is no reason why anything should be this difficult to own or to sell. You guys are killing your own collecting areas and destroying those markets when these are the tactics you employ to collect your items. If this is how you treat those in your area I guarantee you that there are fewer people in your area and it is directly because of you - it drives people away and even seasoned collectors are discouraged.

After hearing more of the details of this story I can tell you for certain that I would never want to own this item - I will be more than satisfied to look at the pretty pictures of these in the books. Why would a new collector be motivated to enter such an area when this is what they face. The answer is that they wouldn‘t. And fewer and fewer of the seasoned guys will bother extending themselves either - why own it when you can‘t get rid it without great pains. And you guys with all your shenanigans and bravado will all end up being stuck with high priced items that nobody wants - nobody, new or old, is going to bother buying it when the people involved have made selling it such a nightmare. Without any buyers, all of those things that are so cherished and that folks worked so hard to acquire, will end up being worthless ... including and especially some of the top end items like this.

Congratulations.

The only reason that ‘Tom’ chose to not melt the thing down is because there were actually 2 bidders that were outstanding thru the whole process, and they wanted not just the knife but to keep the grouping all together (one of them is connected with a Special Forces museum and is really interested in the history surrounding the item). Thanks goodness there are still decent people to counteract the lunacy, but they didn‘t even win it. In the end it was two new bidders who quietly knew what it was - but the item had walked a very treacherous path before they even entered the picture and I feel sorry for any new guys that have had to go thru such a wringer, whether to buy or to sell. The games being played, the attitudes of supposed ‘experts’, the over the top tactics by people who appear to need therapy (or a lobotomy …), the jealousy and envy - it is amazing. Is this what we really desire for our hobbies, for what we want to do in our free time; artificially manipulating situations so advantage can be take of someone who may not have the wherewithal to withstand such abuses, just so we can hoard and gloat or whatever? Running around like a bull in a china shop with big shoulders, flying elbows and big egos and leaving an absolutely huge wake behind?

As for me, well, I’m just telling a story … telling it so that perhaps the good guys in each area can understand how important they are to their hobby. So that each of you remember that the longer you do this, the more important it is to go out of your way to make sure that you are encouraging instead of discouraging. So people understand that on the internet your words have a much bigger footprint and you speak for much more than just yourself, and that you really can change the fabric and nature of an area - for good or bad - so try to check you ego at the door before you start typing. You don’t have to be a leader in your hobby if that is not in you, but try to at least be a positive instead of a negative, and remember that it is all supposed to be for fun so sit back and try to enjoy it … the rest will hopefully just happen.

Best regards all.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[ltcboy]

No offense against "Tom", but that item should not be listed on Fleabay. He should have listed it on Gunbroker or on the CSP, FALFiles & Gunboards WTS pages. If Ebay were on fire, I wouldnt give them the steam off my pi ss.

Mike

[garandfan1974]

Why not donate it and the medals to a museum?

[Panhandle Dan]

I agree, try asking a question, as a newbie, on most collector sites and see the answers, if not downright hostility one gets. Perhaps the question is dumb, but individuals on a collector site initially feel safe enough to ask from others whom they respect. For instance, I asked a question about ammo on CSP and was bombarded with "here we go again", "well once again", and even with others stating that ignorant people should be prevented from purchasing and enjoying collecting. Even, unfortunantly this site. I now only read about the weapons I love and refrain from commenting or asking questions. Not trying to get touchy feely, but just like the VFW, individuals don't want new blood or new ideas as it upsets the old order, apparently they believe themselves to be immortal. Thanks and I do enjoy reading and increasing my knowledge on the several sites I visit. Before others comment I probably did mis-spell several words...LOL

[jmoore]

I agree, try asking a question, as a newbie, on most collector sites and see the answers, if not downright hostility one gets. Perhaps the question is dumb, but individuals on a collector site initially feel safe enough to ask from others whom they respect. For instance, I asked a question about ammo on CSP and was bombarded with "here we go again", "well once again", and even with others stating that ignorant people should be prevented from purchasing and enjoying collecting. Even, unfortunantly this site. I now only read about the weapons I love and refrain from commenting or asking questions. Not trying to get touchy feely, but just like the VFW, individuals don't want new blood or new ideas as it upsets the old order, apparently they believe themselves to be immortal. Thanks and I do enjoy reading and increasing my knowledge on the several sites I visit. Before others comment I probably did mis-spell several words...LOL

Its not that we don't welcome new folk, but some subjects have been WELL covered, and can be easily researched by either looking at the stickies or using the search function. Also, certain topics tend to be rather controversial, even after many run-throughs, and they get folk all worked up -AGAIN!

Heck, I lurked for several years before jumping in, that also tends to get you a "feel" for the waters. Mind you, the "entitlement" crowd who want easy everything will soon wear out their welcome, and... well, there are always a few folk...

Yes, CSP can get a bit "rowdy", but it IS called Jouster.com after all- a bit of clashing and stick poking ought to be expected!


ETA: I'm not sure why this thread is on the M1/M14 forum anyway...


Bodyman, when dealing w/ particularly rare items, one or two individuals can influence the entire market. One "big" buyer or a pirate can change the whole situation esp. as most folk watch the same limited numbers of transactions. The few "up" or "down" moves influence MANY more people due to internet exposure. If those "big wheels" move out of the picture, it may still take some time for the "real" market to settle down. (I know one fellow who ran up the '03a4 market almost single handledly.)

[Bodyman]

ETA: I'm not sure why this thread is on the M1/M14 forum anyway...

Well, I think it is only slightly off topic - this isn't really just about a knife, it is about collecting and about people, and I was trying to hit as many folks as possible with this message. I don't care what you collect or if you re just trying to use it as a vehicle to study history, if you do any of it long enough you may be surprised that regardless of the subject it is really a study of human nature - a study of our strengths and our weaknesses both past and present - and we need to realize that we all make up the fabric of our collecting areas and have sometimes a very quiet but hugely important influence upon that.

Deb, I am sorry if you have been handled roughly - it is as jmoore states, the nature of some of these places and actually we have all experienced it from time to time. But it is also the dynamic of which I speak; folks that are allowing the lower end of their characters to have free rein. What I really sought to accomplish from that missive is for all of us to realize that we each have a responsiblity to protect our past-times and to be aware that it can be our own zeal that can undo things.

In Garand collecting, I had to come up thru several of the more notorious fakers and shiesters. Local to me they were among the very first individuals I met in this - long before I knew who the GCA was or was on the Board of Directors, they had already been banned from being members. One dabbled in the area that I particularly enjoyed (early WRA) and was almost completely fraudulent. Though hardly unscathed, I managed to make it thru ok, but I have been particularly sensitive to the plight of the newest of folks who have to run these guantlets. It isn't right, nor is it fair for us to do that to people. I have over time worked very hard to try to help our newest of folks, mostly because I find their enthusiasm to be contagious - it is sometimes like I am starting over again (unfortunately, time does not allow what it once did).

On these forums, some of the hot button issues are easily tripped by a first-timer, and some of the questions are old hat (but that is where the recently graduated newbies can help out by stepping up and responding - the old guys don't have to answer them all ...). Some of the fights are ridiculous (the ping) and some are ludicrous ('welded' vs. 'rewelded' - I weld things for a living and even I don't care what name you use - I still understand ...), and some are pointlessly argued in spite of actual sources attesting to the contrary (like the fact that the boys in the Corps were being issued 16" bayonets still in 1959 ...). But then some of that is actually the fun, and like jmoore says; it is the nature of the beast at times ...

One of the reasons I posted it here is because I want all of the decent people involved to know how important they are to their endeavors - that we have to actually choose to make things worse or better and that choice is completely up to us (like how we act when these perennial topics and arguments appear again ... and again, ...). Had I specifically used a Garand story, as in the past it would have inevitably degenerated, so it was necessary to go outside of the area (and the example that prompted this was particularly cruddy ...).

Part of the reason these things are collected at all is because they contact a time of incredible sacrifice and incredible character - the oft-repeated phrase of collectors is 'shaking hands by proxy'. People today exhibiting less, dishonors those very ideals we most seek to honor. Which is perhaps I guess, the main reason I posted this - because I don't just want to give up and shrug my shoulders. Instead I want to try to discourage the lunacy and encourage the decent folks to keep being decent so that this or other areas won't go (any further) down the lunatic road. It might be almost pointless, but if you stand at the tipping point then every little movement is critical. The truth is that we don't have to just walk the path or even choose the path, sometimes we have to make the path ... I'd like to make it a good one.

Thanks again for all the kind words folks.

Best regards folks.

[ltcboy]

I agree, try asking a question, as a newbie, on most collector sites and see the answers, if not downright hostility one gets. Perhaps the question is dumb, but individuals on a collector site initially feel safe enough to ask from others whom they respect. For instance, I asked a question about ammo on CSP and was bombarded with "here we go again", "well once again", and even with others stating that ignorant people should be prevented from purchasing and enjoying collecting. Even, unfortunantly this site. I now only read about the weapons I love and refrain from commenting or asking questions. Not trying to get touchy feely, but just like the VFW, individuals don't want new blood or new ideas as it upsets the old order, apparently they believe themselves to be immortal. Thanks and I do enjoy reading and increasing my knowledge on the several sites I visit. Before others comment I probably did mis-spell several words...LOL

DEB-

First of all, everybody, and I mean everbody, puts their pants on the same way as you do. The only difference between an advanced collector and you is that they have been collecting for a longer time period. For you to refrain from asking questions because you might rile somebody else is wrong. I dont care if there is a sticky, another post, whatever.....that's what a forum is. This whole thing is a learning experience. I am sure that there are others who will be happy to answer any question you have regarding the Garand. If some idiot wants to act like a JO, forget about him.

I have one question for you, does anybody on these forums pay your bills. Do they give you an income to live on? No. So as far as the a$$holeish comments like "here we go again" or any of the other crap, let it go. There is a big difference between somebody collecting, shooting and enjoying their hobby and trying to learn as we go on and an arm chair computer quarterback who plays on the computer all day, thinking they are an expert of something they are not.

Ask you questions, none of them are dumb or stupid.

Mike