Need help on '03 purchase

[Hondo]

I know this is a broad question...but I am looking to buy my first Springfield 03,,,can you all give me some quick hints of what to look for or avoid in getting a good '03...

I am new to the '03's and have done some cramming but need some crash course help from the experts here.

Thanks so much in advance for your help and advise.

Bill

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[chuckchili]

I just bought one and I think I can help a little. I am a total impulse buyer and jump in head first and then try to pick stuff afterwards so take what I say with a grain of salt. You probably already know more about these rifles than I do. But with the 1903, there is so much we need to know that its pretty hard to score a home run on a first rifle purchase without some research. (home run for me = high quality, low price). Before I buy my next one, I will read some books about them to know what to look for. I also plan on getting a bore gauge to make sure the barrel is at least decent. If you have the opportunity to take some photos and post them on here before you buy it would be to your benefit. Experts on here can tell you what's right and what's wrong with the rifle so you can gauge how much you'll have to spend on it after you get it. Another tip would be to decide what you want the rifle for before you buy it so you know what you're willing to sacrifice if something's not right. If you want to collect, the bore isn't as important vs. if you want to shoot alot, the bore is the most important thing. My two cents, I'm just starting out myself.

[Mike D]

Something to consider if your buying a shooter is the serial #. Below 800,000 for Springfield and 285,507 for Rock Island are "low numbered" and considered unsafe to shoot(all Rem 03's are OK). Had problems with the heat treatment early on. Many people shoot these and many receivers are just fine, but there is a risk.

Lots of "high numbered" ones out there if your just looking for a decent rifle. Your average rifle will have gone through a rebuild and have newer barrel and other parts replaced (bands, bolt, stock, rear sight). That same rifle with a low serial # does not have the same value as a high numbered one.

Like Chuck said, make sure the barrel is good. Check the muzzle and look down the bore. Headspace is usually not a problem, but it doesn't hurt to check or ask. Make sure the stock does not have any cracks, especially behind the tang. Grasping grooves would be a plus. Milled parts vs. stamped are a plus. These things are cosmetic, but are correct for 03's and effect value.

Your average shooter will be $500-700, again depending on small parts. "Correct" rifles vary widely.

Decent 03A3's are in the same price range.

Buying a good book can help alot, if you can stand the wait. Post pics before or after you buy, if possible. Good luck!

[Kirk]

Aim for a "High Number" Springfield or Rock Island 1903 rifle. These were made starting in 1918. Remington (1903s, A3s & A4s & Smith Corona (A3s) were made in WWII.

It is generally accepted, except by the CMP, that SA receivers below 800000 & RIA receivers below 285507(except as noted below) received a "Single Heat Treatment" and are called Low Number, LN, receivers. During manufacture, some (not all) of these LN receivers were heated too hot during manufacture to the point the steel was burned and the grain structure affected. No definitive way is known to identify what receivers were burned and which were not and thus determine how strong any particular receiver is and which are likely to fail. The problem is the marginal strength of burned steel. Its strength is reduced but is adequate for a round of ball ammunition. But, if a cartridge has a pierced primer or splits on firing, the force of the gas escaping into the action exceeds the strength of the steel and causes the receiver to shatter or blow up. The later receivers were double heat treated (DHT) or nickle steel (NS) and are much stronger. Most people choose not to shoot a SHT or LN receiver - but some do. Also, this is not to say HN receivers have not failed - they have and still do but chances are very remote.

The CMP calls all SA receivers below 810000 a SHT because after SA resumed production of DHT receivers, 65 SHT receivers were found & got mixed in with the DHT ones.

John Beard says there are 10,000 DHT RIA receiver below S/N 285507. The reason is that when the Army ordered RI to cease production ca. 1917, there were 15,000 receivers on hand, all serialized. 5,000 had already been heat treated (SHT) and the other 10,000 were not heat treated. When RI was ordered to resume production, virtually all the SHT receivers were destroyed. All of the 10,000 receivers - mixed S/Ns in no particular sequence - were given the DHT. Since the S/Ns were not known or recorded, they were all lumped in with the SHT receivers as being brittle. Thus, 15,000 from 285507 = 270,507. Any RIA S/N above that would be either destroyed or a DHT receiver.

A Mark 1 (Pedersen Device model) is just a HN with a few mods for the PD. Unless all the unique parts are there, it has no extra value or functionality.

There were a few 1903A2s made as subcaliber firing devices for cannon but were all later converted back to 1903 configuration. They will be marked 1903A2 on the receiver & are very rare.

So, if you buy a 1903, I suggest you get a HN receiver. Have it inspected by a competent gunsmith (some are not) and check the headspace. Pay particular attention to the chamber, bore & crown. The better the condition, the better the rifle can shoot. Also, when the two guard screws are tightened, the stock fore end trip should put 4-8 lbs of upward pressure on the barrel. This is important for accuracy. The 1903 stock is free floated from the receiver to the tip. Avoid stocks with pins (appear as brass dots about .08" dia under the action. Pinned stocks are famous for splitting. Get a stock with stock bolts. Also, make sure the metal sleeve in the rear guard screw hole is present. It keeps the stock from splitting in the tang area.

The main difference between the 1903 & 1903A3 is the sights. The 1903 has them mounted on the barrel ahead of the receiver. The A3 has an aperture rear sight mounted on the receiver bridge. The A3 rear sight is much easier to adjust for W&E.

There are three common kinds of 1903/A3 stocks. The S stock, made from 1903 through 1944 has no pistol grip and may or may not have grasping grooves (discontinued in WWII)

The C Stock has a full pistol grip & a higher, longer comb. It is much more ergonomic & comfortable to most people. It was introduced in 1929 but seldom issued. In WWII, a number of C stocks were used but on the 1903A4 rifles & as replacements.

The so-called Scant stock was a WWII expedient that has the same comb as the C stock but, since the stock blanks used were intended as S stocks & were not big enough, have a semi-pistol grip. They were used as replacement stocks & on 1903A4s.

Expect to pay $650 & up for a good 1903/A3. Most importantly, insist on the right to inspect the rifle before you buy it. A number of 1903s & A3s, some an unissued condition, were converted by the Army to Drill Rifles. The CMP sold these for $175 an "non-firing" rifles. A DR had a steel plug driven into the chamber; the barrel welded to the receiver; a hole burned into the barrel; the magazine cut off welded so that it can not be rotated & hence the bolt can not be removed. The striker hole in the bolt was welded closed & the tip of the striker ground off. I do not recommend you buy or shoot a DR. For one thing, they are often presented as an unaltered rifle and priced accordingly - that's fraud at the worst. A DR can be made fireable by cutting through the welds & replacing the barrel, bolt & cut off & are often refinished. DR receivers can be recognized by any evidence of welding on the bottom of the receiver ring where it joins the barrel - you must take the barreled action out of the stock to see this - or on the receiver on either side of the mag cut off.

Good luck on your search!

[Hondo]

Man you guys are awesome....I have run across a 1943 a3 that I am looking at...I will try to post some picks...

Thanks...look for the photos if I can figure out how to copy them.

[Hondo]

Here is a link to one I am looking at....seems a little pricey based on note above...what do you think..(don't anybody one up me on this

WTS: Remington 1903a3 - INGunOwners

What do you think?

[Rick the Librarian]

It is hard to tell exactly, but the rifle appears to be mostly correct. A Correct/original M1903A3 has a Parkerized bareel/receiver and most other parts are a blue/black. The tricky thing is that the late Remington M1903A3s @ 4,000,000 and higher may have had a few Parkerized parts. The bolt appears original.

$925 would be a decent deal for an original but high for a mixmaster.

[JGaynor]

Hondo, there is a boxed arsenal/depot inspection stamp just forward of the magazine cutoff. Can't be positive but it looks like [RIA/EB]. i doubt the rifle was given a total rebuild due to the finish of the metal parts being consistent with an original.
I do think the stock may have been refinished, possibly by a civilian owner. Some of the inspection marks look a little faint, indicating a sanding either before it was placed in govt storage or afterwards.
Overall the rifle does not look bad.
If this guy is close to you try and go over to see him. Bring cash - Cash speaks loudly.
As far as the price is concerned by all means negotiate the best deal you can. But keep in mind while a better piece MIGHT be just over the hill at the next gun show there's an equal or better chance that its not. You can burn thru a lot of bucks just driving around looking.

Good luck and let us know how you make out - the seller seems motivated and flexible.

Regards,

Jim

[Hondo]

Thanks forthe help...I have sent a note to the seller about meeting...Now I wait...I will follow up with you all.

Thanks....

[Mike D]

I wouldn't get into a hurry about buying this rifle, especially if its the first one your looking at. The stock does look too shiny, and it has a rebuild stamp. Little things, I know, but still. Kinda looks like the action received some varnish too. I just don't think its worth $900+. Maybe $750, out the door, maybe.

There are alot of A3's out there to look at. I look on GunBroker and other auction sites all the time. I just check GB's "completed auctions", there are nicer rifles out there for less money, shipping and transfer fees included.

If that rifle is close enough for you to go look at it, go. A hands on inspection is best, but don't think you will waste a trip if you don't buy it.

You might burn a little money and time searching, but its money well spent learning how NOT to get "burned"!