Provisional IRA and the Number 4

[8udr]

Im reading a book at the minute called Faith and Duty by Curtis it's been around a long time now. In the pictures it shows an illegal VCP the terrorist is srmed with a number 4 and there is a captured Number 4 in another picture. Can any Old Hands shed any light on if there were any investigations at the time to see which contracts these rifles originated from? I could understand if the serial numbers were filed off but surely the barrel stamps are bound to tell its history

Information

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[Mk VII]

A number of army camps were raided for arms, in England and Northern Ireland, notably Gough Barracks in Armagh. Arborfield REME garrison and Felsted School OTC were also raided although the arms in these cases were quickly recovered.

[Peter Laidler]

I don't think that you'll get many answers to your question while the 'put-it-all-to-bed' policy is taking place. We were still answering questions when I finished........................

[Beerhunter]

Can any Old Hands shed any light on if there were any investigations at the time to see which contracts these rifles originated from?

I'm not sure of your point. Are you insinuating that rifles were diverted from legitimate end-users to the IRA (Stickies) or PIRA? PIRA weren't even around in those days.

They were almost certainly stolen by one or other of the two organisation over the years. Mk.VII makes a good point. My old school's armoury was raided but they only took the Sterlings and Stens, IIRC.

In any case how would one examine the rifles unless they were amongst the few that were captured by the British or Irish Armies? The vast bulk of the PIRA arms were "put beyond use" with no peeking at serial numbers allowed.

[8udr]

"I'm not sure of your point. Are you insinuating that rifles were diverted from legitimate end-users to the IRA (Stickies) or PIRA? PIRA weren't even around in those days"

I'm only concerned with the weapons recovered at the time and I'm interested to know if anyone delved into the contracts at the time to see where any recovered Lee Enfields originated from eg The Irish Army, the Armagh TA raid in the 50s etc
My personal interest is among other things I once recovered some .303 ammunition from a hedge in East Tyrone using a 1 Meter probe but that's digressing from my question

[Beerhunter]

I'm only concerned with the weapons recovered at the time and I'm interested to know if anyone delved into the contracts at the time to see where any recovered Lee Enfields originated from

I'm sure that recovered PIRA arms were examined at the time for their origin. There is the famous Thompson that was part of the original batch that the Stickies bought in the 1920s. However I think that currently that will be one of the many sleeping dogs that will be left to lie.

[Frederick303]

I have a small interest in Irish Enfield Rifles and have done some research on the topic. Based on the published data from the Irish Ministry of Defense archives there are 140~240 unaccounted No 4 MK II rifles in the sales lists from 1991 to 1996 (out of the original 50,000 purchased). The Irish army never used the No 4 MK I (except for 50 No 4 T rifles). All of the No 4 T rifles were accounted for as of the year 2000. The missing No 4 MK II rifles were supposed to be DP rifles that were sunk out at sea. So according to "official sources", there does not seem to be any significant number of lost rifles that ended up in IRA hands. In looking at sources on the Irish use of the No 4 MK II I have never come across a reference to a significant loss of these rifles in FCA use.

That said in a few sources on the IRA raids across the border in the 1956~1962 time frame the IRA was said to have ample stocks of both No 4 rifles and Brens. It is also written the IRA and the Irish arms sort of maintained a truce during this period, with the IRA not making any moves on the Irish army and the Irish army sort of turning a blind eye to their cross border activities. I believe the majority of the IRA rifles were obtained from the early post war period when some number of arms had been picked up off the battlefields and were in illicit circulation.

In reading articles on IRA arms dating from the middle to late 1960s it appears that the Enfield was fading in preference to the M1 Garand and the M1 carbine, when they were using a rifle, which seems to be less common after the cross border military type incursions stopped. The primary source of these arms (if what I read is correct), was US IRA sympathizers.

By the 1970s the .223 AR18 and a few AR15 seem to have been popular with IRA when they could get them. The widespread introduction of these arms seems to be why the UDR changed over from the No4 to the L1A1 in the 1973~1974 time frame. Once again I read the primary source being US sourced arms

[enbloc8]

By the 1970s the .223 AR18 and a few AR15 seem to have been popular with IRA when they could get them. The widespread introduction of these arms seems to be why the UDR changed over from the No4 to the L1A1 in the 1973~1974 time frame. Once again I read the primary source being US sourced arms

I've read of at least one instance of ARs (actual M-16s, probably captured ARVN rifles supplied by North Vietnam) being delivered via an offshore "dead drop" by the KGB in the 1970s.

[8udr]

Thanks Frederick303 very informative

[CDB18]

I re-read Bandit Country recently and noticed a couple references to Enfields in use by the IRA during the 80's. Arms smuggling via ships is also mentioned.