.308 origins? Read another thread here that gave a tale I had not heard before: true?

[bczrx]

I was reading through older threads when I came across this one: .308 is ballistic twin of 8mm mauser

I was confused as I remember that the original loads for 8mm were closer to the 30-06 in terms of velocity and muzzle energy, but have been watered down for older rifles by most ammo factorys to the point they are the same as 7mm Mauser.

Then another person commented that the .308 was derived from the French 7.5mm round.

That is the first time I had ever heard that. Is this true?

I was curious as I had always read/heard that the .308 was derived from the .300Savage round, but with a neck and shoulder that was better for automatic weapons: and was designed to duplicate WW I 30-06 power in a short action.

This also seems more plausible to me as the .300savage was developed 4 years before the 7.5mm French round.

However, I am NOT an expert. I just would appreciate some clarification.

Thanks!

Information

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[Bruce_in_Oz]

.308 Win is the "commercialised" name for a variant of the early 7.62 NATO cartridge. It appears that Winchester worked out that a "sporting" version of the new service cartridge would be a seller. There are subtle differences in the internal and external dimensions of the case, and there is an ongoing "debate" about pressure differences, but I will leave that to the serious "anoraks".

7.5 x 54 was the French answer to the 7.92 x 57, post WW1. However, given the diameter of the case, it seems to have also been influenced by the 7.5 x 55 Swiss,with its larger than "standard" case diameter and slinky boat-tailed bullet.

The .300 Savage was introduced in 1920, in the ill-fated Savage Model 20 rifle. The Model 20 was an attempt to make a "sporter" that had more than a passing nod to the 03 Springfield. Remember that in 1920, there were millions of ex-servicemen who were familiar with the Springfield and Savage wanted to "cash in". It was a very short action and even had a cocking piece like a Springfield. The decision to use the trigger as the bolt catch, just like a smallbore / .22 rifle was part of its undoing. I had two if these rifles at one stage, and both had "issues" with bolt retention.

The .300 Savage was (briefly) touted as being a "compact '06": compact it was, '06 it was not.

The .300 Savage has a very short neck, not considered "a good idea" in military circles..........Then again, there's the 5.56 NATO............

Savage dropped the model 20 fairly quickly, but the .300 Savage cartridge soldiered on in the legendary Model 99 lever action series. Savage would occasionally do runs of the '99 in this calibre well into the 1970s at least, even though the '99 was also built in .308Win.

[bczrx]

.308 Win is the "commercialised" name for a variant of the early 7.62 NATO cartridge. It appears that Winchester worked out that a "sporting" version of the new service cartridge would be a seller. There are subtle differences in the internal and external dimensions of the case, and there is an ongoing "debate" about pressure differences, but I will leave that to the serious "anoraks".

7.5 x 54 was the French answer to the 7.92 x 57, post WW1. However, given the diameter of the case, it seems to have also been influenced by the 7.5 x 55 Swiss,with its larger than "standard" case diameter and slinky boat-tailed bullet.

The .300 Savage was introduced in 1920, in the ill-fated Savage Model 20 rifle. The Model 20 was an attempt to make a "sporter" that had more than a passing nod to the 03 Springfield. Remember that in 1920, there were millions of ex-servicemen who were familiar with the Springfield and Savage wanted to "cash in". It was a very short action and even had a cocking piece like a Springfield. The decision to use the trigger as the bolt catch, just like a smallbore / .22 rifle was part of its undoing. I had two if these rifles at one stage, and both had "issues" with bolt retention.

The .300 Savage was (briefly) touted as being a "compact '06": compact it was, '06 it was not.

The .300 Savage has a very short neck, not considered "a good idea" in military circles..........Then again, there's the 5.56 NATO............

Savage dropped the model 20 fairly quickly, but the .300 Savage cartridge soldiered on in the legendary Model 99 lever action series. Savage would occasionally do runs of the '99 in this calibre well into the 1970s at least, even though the '99 was also built in .308Win.

Hmmm.

So, is there any reason to believe that the 7.62x51mm NATO round was derived from the French 7.5x54mm round?

That is the claim that I was completely unfamiliar with.

Everything I have read indicates that the .300Savage was more of the parent cartridge for the 7.62x51mm NATO round.

I didn't know that about the Savage model 20 rifles.

I have a .300Savage Model 99 and a .308WIN Model 99 rifle, and enjoy the heck out of them, so I am familiar with the Savage model 99 connection.

Just trying to clear up 'the French connection'.

[jamie5070]

Maybe the 7.65x53 argentine had some influence???
john

[Parashooter]

Let's get real here. The fact that I have a nose, two arms, the same number of feet, etc. doesn't mean I am your Dad! The 7.62 NATO cartridge case was designed by removing some unnecessary length from the existing U.S. military rifle cartridge ("30-06"), reducing body taper, altering the extractor groove, and a few other tweaks to enhance reliability in automatic weapons. Any similarity to cartridges other than Pappy '06, Grandmaw 7x57, and Grandpaw 8x57 is coincidental - not developmental.

[jonnyc]

Parashooter has it right. And while we're at it, there is no external design difference between nominal .308 and 7.62x51 rounds. Any variation is the same as you might find between factory rounds made by different manufacturers. Some military 7.62 has been produced with a thicker internal web to better withstand automatic weapon extraction, but that is really only of interest to reloaders. Military 7.62 chambers can be a bit more generous than tight commercial chambers, but that has nothing to do with the .308/7.62 cartridge...........same beast with two different names. Your mother is your father's wife...........usually.

[RCS]

Some post WW2 US Ordnance 7,62mm cartridges, the early 300 Savage has a FA 46 headstamp, different profiles are found in this small sample, some are 7,62x49.5mm and then the 7,62x51mm.

The single cartridge is the 7x49mm Liviano which Venezuela ordered chambered in their first order of 5000 FAL rifles in 1954. Would still be an excellent cartridge todayAttachment 52398Attachment 52399

[ireload2]

There is really little new in cartridge development between the 7.65 Mauser and the 7.62 Nato other than the "not invented here" syndrome.
Examples 1903 Springfield and Mauser bolt guns, many different autoloading pistols with John Brownings locking system, ZB26 and Bren light machineguns for the most part it is copy, copy, copy. Just because you are not an identical twin does not mean you are not related.