Pre 1988 ban L1A1 Civilian owned rifles

[mrclark303]

Just curious,

I have a few old spec deac L1A1's that were originally UK civilian rifles before the semi auto ban of 1988.

Did any of our UK (or expat) members have L1A1's or 1A1's on their FAC's back in the day??

I believe the L1A1's were almost exclusively Lithgow in manufacture, but Indian 1A1's and a few semi auto converted Fals were encountered too.

What I would really like to see is an image of them being used at Bisley, I don't think I have ever seen a picture of a UK civilian owned, Sec1 semi auto L1A1.

How wide was the ownership of semi auto civilian service rifles prior to the ban (including all such beasts, semi Brens, Stens etc, was it still a niche area of shooting like Straight pull rifles are today, or was it more widely appreciated and enjoyed ... must have been much cheaper that's for sure!?

Anyone??

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

I had one on my FAC, but not for long. As you might expect, it had an Australian number but was totally UK after having been through the complete workshop FTR system, under my supervision. I can't really remember what was done to it to reinforce its semi auto status. It was just one of those things. I suppose you could have done something to it so that you'd get a bit of rock and roll and shake it to bits in short order but I never knew anyone that did. In those days, the law close to punish those who actually broke the law as opposed to just chastise or 'pre-punish' everyone as they seem to do now.

A bit like car ownership really. Plenty of people have cars that will exceed the speed limit but that ain't banned cars capable of going fast yet.

Just my jaundiced view of course

[Simon P]

Mine was Australian brand new in sealed pack from Tom Collins New Kent Road, Tom didn't bother to much with small details such as proof.

It had wooden furniture, like most people in the 80s they wanted plastic furniture so i had it refinished to lose the parked green finish & plastic furniture fitted along with an AR Buckland top cover with scope rail

[mrclark303]

Thanks fir sharing guys, I missed out on that happy more enlightened time in UK firearms ownership.

Hate to ask, did they go for the chop or did you keep them deactivated?

One of my old spec deactivated examples is ex Singapore AD71, Birmingham proofed in 1987, suncorite painted and fitted with a mint set of British Enfield marked plastic.

Clearly the fashion of the day as it looked like the issue rifle.

A very tight action, looks to have had no use really prior to deactivation, but I guess there was quite a number of semi autos with nowhere to go after Ryan's murderous rampage...

My ex civvy L2A1 has had a pin added to the TMH to stop the selector being rotated to rock and roll and it's had the longer L1A1 trigger plunger added, but that's it!

They were more enlightened times indeed!

[Peter Laidler]

The trigger axis pin was slightly long to prevent the change lever being rotated to A. Is this the pin you speak of? I think a lot of the dealers bought them in a for a quick buck at a bit below the purchase price and sold them abroad because they were just well looked after service rifles. I didn't have a SUIT on mine as I knew that they were rubbish but did have the double aperture Hythe sight. Quite a few had the picatinny covers - or at least, standard covers that had a rail mounted on them. To be honest, some of the welded on rails were a bit, er........ What's the word I'm truly looking for? Yes....., not very good! If they weren't parallel with the cover/body/barrel the weld would shear the cover during recoil. Anyway. Another thing that immediately became apparent was that every civvy shooter that owned one immediately became an L1A1 expert.

Happy days. Cheap ammo and the practical rifle scene was overflowing with ex Military shooters who really enjoyed the run-downs, snaps, rapids etc etc. As an Army RO, It was easy to give them a taste of real combat style shooting. Standing at 50 metres, I can hear it all now......... 'The targets in your lane will be exposed for between 3 and 6 seconds. You will shoot one round at each target at each exposure. There will be ten exposures Does anyone NOT understand the detail........(pause)........ WATCH AND SHOOT........WATCH AND SHOOT............... (Signal to the butts.....). We didn't wait for dawdlers........

Great times.

Then there were the run-downs from 600 to 100 with all the drills and make-safes while you were on the move. What knackering days they were for the shooters and the RO's. I must confess that I enjoyed the RO'ing as much as the shooting and used to spend the day just as the RCO. No rifle to clean either...........

[mrclark303]

Sounds like great fun Peter, a really special time in our shooting past, I wish I had been there ... Yep the trigger plunger is L1 length in the L2A1. I have a few in my spares kit, including two that are about 6mm shorter, so I guess L2A1 examples.

I have Hythe sights in both my L1's, they really do help tighten up the groups don't they.

[tankhunter]

Halcyon Days indeed! Just about every unit I got posted to. I was attached each year to their Shooting Teams. I was fortunate enough to turn live rounds, into empty cases. On Ranges Worldwide! I must have put close to a Million rounds through various smallarms over those years. And that was JUST with shooting teams, not including Functioning tests after repairs on the unit 30 Mtr Ranges!

I was never fitter, than getting prepared for all the diciplines, on each of the Army 'Shoot's.
The Rupel Cup, The Roberts Cup, & so on, & so on.......All those Run Downs during practice sessions! It REALLY did get you super fit!

Oh I wont mention every evening free & out & about pulling the Ladies!......
VERY Happy Memories their!...

[Frederick303]

Some time ago when I was researching what happened to US M1 rifles I came across the following bit of info: supposedly in 1988 when the semi-auto ban on full bore rifles occurred a total of 4,700~4,750 FACs were affected. No exact figure on how many rifles were held by the average FAC (some held more than one) but the following calibers were listed in order of approximate prevalence:

7.62 NATO, 30-06, 7.62x39, 5.56 x45, 9x19. The only figure I could come across was the number of MK VI sterling's held which was around 130 in the UK and the various islands that had their own permitting systems. Back then I was really interested in how many M1 rifles might have been in circulation in the UK and was attempting to bracket the range (not many) . on the other end the two most popular 7.62 NATO rifles were the L1A1 and the HK91, in that order (or so it was indicated to me).

None of the above came from official sources but a few competitive shooters/dealers that were kind enough to explain the intricacies of UK laws and permitting to me based on on-line postings. I think a Bisley dealer/shooter Jack Brogden was the source for the # of permits (only name written down), but the notes are not clear, he might have been the one to explain that in the 1970/80s the permitting of rifles went by caliber, with most police agencies taking a dim view of multiple rifles in the same caliber. Before the practical rifle sport became popular there were not all that many self loading rifles in use, the Bisley full bore rules did not allow the use of those actions in target or match rifle. The M1 rifles were apparently pretty cheap to dealers in the late 1970s when they could not be imported into the US of A, far cheaper than a L1A1.

In any case for what it is worth that is what data I have. Perhaps the UK fellow can correct any misconceptions in the above, the data was collected for a different purpose and perhaps there is some inference that I took incorrectly. But I am pretty sure that the total FAC figure is correct as I could not believe it was so low. The low figure went to explain why there was relatively little fight of the self loading ban, when a much larger effort was made on the 1997 pistol ban.

[harry mac]

Some time ago when I was researching what happened to US M1 rifles I came across the following bit of info: supposedly in 1988 when the semi-auto ban on full bore rifles occurred a total of 4,700~4,750 FACs were affected. No exact figure on how many rifles were held by the average FAC (some held more than one) but the following calibers were listed in order of approximate prevalence:

7.62 NATO, 30-06, 7.62x39, 5.56 x45, 9x19. The only figure I could come across was the number of MK VI sterling's held which was around 130 in the UK and the various islands that had their own permitting systems. Back then I was really interested in how many M1 rifles might have been in circulation in the UK and was attempting to bracket the range (not many) . on the other end the two most popular 7.62 NATO rifles were the L1A1 and the HK91, in that order (or so it was indicated to me).

None of the above came from official sources but a few competitive shooters/dealers that were kind enough to explain the intricacies of UK laws and permitting to me based on on-line postings. I think a Bisley dealer/shooter Jack Brogden was the source for the # of permits (only name written down), but the notes are not clear, he might have been the one to explain that in the 1970/80s the permitting of rifles went by caliber, with most police agencies taking a dim view of multiple rifles in the same caliber. Before the practical rifle sport became popular there were not all that many self loading rifles in use, the Bisley full bore rules did not allow the use of those actions in target or match rifle. The M1 rifles were apparently pretty cheap to dealers in the late 1970s when they could not be imported into the US of A, far cheaper than a L1A1.

In any case for what it is worth that is what data I have. Perhaps the UK fellow can correct any misconceptions in the above, the data was collected for a different purpose and perhaps there is some inference that I took incorrectly. But I am pretty sure that the total FAC figure is correct as I could not believe it was so low. The low figure went to explain why there was relatively little fight of the self loading ban, when a much larger effort was made on the 1997 pistol ban.

Quite some time ago I heard the figure of 5000 shooters affected by the ban, so your figure would seem correct.
Just as Hungerford happened I was saving up to buy my own L1A1, IIRC, they were around £250 (about a month's take home wage for a young cavalry trooper at the time).
I remember seeing the adverts in Guns Review offering StuG44 for about £450, MP40s for around £400 and MkII stens for £90.

[philb]

peter

I remember it well, we had some good time in the NWRPC didn't we, they had an L1A1 as a club gun