When it really happens: SHTF...

[Jonzie]

Watch the water pressure with that set up, or you may end up with freckles!

Now thats funny

[Patrick Chadwick]

I belong to that group of "older people with pre-existing conditions" who are more endangered than the average and likely to lose out when it comes to triage.

So this is not a joke, not a rant, but a serious attempt to think through what is obviously going wrong. I may be in error, but if I am right, then THIS IS AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE FOR EVERYBODY - ESPECIALLY OVIDIO.

The death rate in Italy suggests that the " social distance" and lock-down precautions are NOT working as expected. And I do not think it can be explained away just by people sneaking out to have a drink with friends.

There is one place where everybody is allowed to go - and handle goods that have been handled by other people!

THE SUPERMARKETS (and any other food shops).

It does not matter if you wear a diving suit with breathing apparatus and enter the shop singly. You will be picking up goods that have been handled by other people. Lots of other people. And it does not matter how hygienically the goods have been packed - the packaging itself may have been contaminated on the outside surfaces.

So you come home, take off your protective gear, and then ... unpack the goods, thus touching the contaminated exterior ... and then touch the goods themselves, thus transferring the contamination to the goods.

How to avoid, or at least reduce this risk?

In the shops, a simple "fingering" prohibition on the lines of "you touch it, you buy it" would be sensible, but probably unenforcable.

More effective would be a check on all customers entering a shop that they are wearing disposable gloves - plus the fingering prohibition. No gloves - no admittance.

But some skinflints will cheat with gloves that they have used over and over. Gloves that are themselves contaminated.

So I envisage shops supplying gloves at the door. BTW, I have read that there is (or about to be) a shortage of disposable gloves.

I won't continue unnecessarily, as I think the participants here can work out the consequences themselves. Basically, one needs to think it through all the way from shop to table. Assume that everything you acquire is surface-contaminated - even ammo!

Sorry if this all seems long-winded, but that is OK if it helps anyone.

Keep healthy - and take these precautions.

Patrick

[GeeRam]

Yes, this is a problem, and I'm lucky in now having a garage, and when I plan my next supermarket run early next week, I will be doing it before I need any of the contents, and I will be leaving the bag and its contents in the garage for 72 hours, and spray distinfecting the plastic frozen packets before taking inside.
Funnily enough, I was reading advice on the BBC website this afternoon, giving more or less the same advice.
This is much more of a problem if you are a city dweller and have to go out every few days to get food and essentials.

[Surpmil]

Interesting isn't it how the most obvious question: what can people do to improve their immune response, and therefore their ability to survive this without medical intervention, is utterly absent from media coverage?

It is clearly impossible for China to have suddenly contained this pandemic by conventional methods, or else other countries could do the same.

So they are either concealing what is really going on, or using methods that are not being reported here.

One of the things not being reported is the use of intravenous Vitamin C in China. I have also seen evidence of good success with some traditional herbal treatments there also.

It was both hilarious and pathetic that while toilet paper sold out, vitamins were in plentiful supply, and still are.



It is obviously wise to do all possible to prevent infection by isolation and hygiene etc., but this is clearly difficult. More important is what can we do to improve our immune response on our own?

The answer is the same common-sense measures that worked to improve health before this crisis and will long after it is gone.

[browningautorifle]

I've already been doing such, having been instructed in NBCW decades ago. That would be Nuclear, BIOLOGICAL, Chemical warfare... I bring everything home and wash handleables such as apples with soap and water...yes they can be... Use Lysol wipes on milk containers, things with packaging that has to stay, and cut the other things out of their trappings to go into a container/bag from in the house. I wear surgical gloves that used to be for gun cleaning. I use alcohol that was for cleaning my glasses, just purchased in bulk. I have Lysol wipes by the case because that's how I've been used to buying them. I decontaminate the car inside and touch areas outside...it's just like we'd been through the cold war training again... I focus on what was touched like a crook wiping down everything touched for prints. I stood back years ago and noticed how dirty many people were that were shopping for food and the fact that they touched EVERYTHING whether they needed to or not. I've been washing things down for years...

So, I have to agree with Patrick...

Assume that everything you acquire is surface-contaminated

I load my own ammo so...

[Ovidio]

Guys, the most vivid memory I have of NBC training during Officer’s School is when my instructor asked me why I looked so annoyed. I told him that I understood the need for that training and, as long as I would be wearing a uniform, I’d be doing my duty. But if anybody started a nuclear or biological war after my time in the military, I’d just prefer to go out walking on a field, in the mountains, anywhere, and just die. Now I have a family and can’t do it anymore, but I still think that would be the best thing. If humankind is so horrendously stupid, then I don’t think I really need to take part any longer.
So, in the end, I will do what I have to for my kids, but in case of a real human responsibility, I’m a bit in a troublesome situation. Seriously...
Just for the kids... And because I can’t decide for them.
I will wash hands, take precautions, not go in crowded places, but I won’t go to extremes. Somehow I just don’t seem to like the idea of being there in a Mad Max world. If the family will be there, yes. Absolutely. If not, well... bye bye, cruel world.
So I am taking it seriously, but not making it too extreme.
Maybe I’ll get lots of backfire, but these are my deepest feelings...

[Aragorn243]

My county is now apparently on stay at home orders. I anticipated that as the number of cases has reached where the other counties had when they were placed on the same restrictions. I have not yet confirmed it but my daughter just told me. Cases here are 33 with no fatalities.

As for the state, watching the briefing now. We have 2196 total confirmed cases and 22 fatalities. We are nowhere near capacity for hospital beds, ICU beds or ventilators. Something like 10% of cases require hospitalization, 2% require ICU beds and 1% require ventilators. From numbers provided, we are at about 1/3 capacity for total beds and ICU beds and less than that for ventilators.

New cases has leveled off for the day, actually declined slightly but not significantly. Too early to tell if this is a trend. They went up for our county but not for the state as a whole. There remains a swath through the center of the state which has no confirmed cases.

On the above concerns. Very unlikely this is transmitted by handling supermarket items or shipped items or mail. It does not survive long on most surfaces. The large numbers in Italy and Spain are more likely to more people having it before the stay in place orders started. This has a relatively long incubation time, up to 14 days yet this entire time you can be infecting others and they could take 14 days to show symtoms. That's 28 days till peak even in a complete shutdown.

That doesn't mean we can't take precautions. I'm not bringing the mail into the house but opening it on the porch, throwing all the external parts, packaging, envelopes etc and all junk mail straight into the outside trash containers. Papers then get brought in and set aside for several days. Lifespan on newspaper, cardboard, etc is estimated to be hours, not days.

We do not let anyone into the house, not even our kids. Our last visit with my youngest daughter was Monday evening and even then we didn't allow them in until all of us had been cleared of fever.

You should also wash your hands prior to doing anything after handling something questionable.

I'm minimizing going out but am not really afraid to do so. Everyone here at least has the good sense to stay away from everyone else, kind of weird actually how fast we all adapted to that.

As a Biology major in college, I was "forced" into the Chemical Branch of the US Army but I outsmarted them and joined a Reserve Maintenance Unit which had an Ordnance slot which I wanted and forced their hand. I still wound up being the NBC officer in the unit and having to go to NBC school in addition to my Ordnance training.

[browningautorifle]

If the family will be there, yes. Absolutely.

So you see we're hooped then. The protective animal inside us will keep us on duty to the end. We'll be taking care of those dear to us...

[mrclark303]

Yesss Sir Ovidio I agree 130%

Seconded ...

---------- Post added at 12:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 AM ----------

So you see we're hooped then. The protective animal inside us will keep us on duty to the end. We'll be taking care of those dear to us...

And seconded again ....

[mrclark303]

I think when this has 'eventually' passed in the Western world, we will be left with a world turned on its head.

The virus will circle round and round like a carousel on the African and Indian continents and central Asia, it will kill Millon's of poor undernourished people and dangerously destabilise large areas, think the Syrian situation on steroids (with nuclear weapons, in the case of India/Pakistan).

Worldwide airline travel simply won't recover for years and it may never be the same again.

It will take a vaccine, deployed worldwide to shut this down,that will take years guys.

The news coming out of the US tonight, that individual states are competing (and bidding against each other) for ventilators and protective equipment is disturbing, massively driving up the price of this critical life saving equipment.

I sincerely hope the federal government bangs heads together and takes control very quickly......

The UK has finally got it's act together, a bit late, but a true national effort is underway on a massive scale, with over half a million members of the public forming a volunteer army to assist in all areas of the coordinated national response.

The NHS is now on a war footing and going 'full tilt' to meet the coming **** storm.

Companies all over the country are now involved in the rapid prototyping and production of ventilators and other medical equipment.